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Livenator
Posted on 16 April 2016 - 12:34 PM
DaGoldBrick wrote
Hivlik wrote...
yea but when someone who hacks to troll people for entertainment begs for an unban and gets it…
you get my point
He obviously gets your point, he just refuses to believe it because he's friends with him
Posted on 16 April 2016 - 12:51 PM
cringiecake wrote
DaGoldBrick wrote...
He obviously gets your point, he just refuses to believe it because he's friends with him
yeah dude okay bro, my opinions and logic are all invalid because I go in Teamspeak with Livenator now and then! solid!
Posted on 16 April 2016 - 03:03 PM
Hivlik wrote
cringiecake wrote...
yeah dude okay bro, my opinions and logic are all invalid because I go in Teamspeak with Livenator now and then! solid!
Not invalid.
Just influenced by your relationship with him, nulling them irrelevant as bias shouldn't have a place when it comes to bans.
But i dont know why i care anymore, not the end of the world.
Posted on 16 April 2016 - 03:18 PM
Hivlik wrote
But Livenator not only stopped hacking on badlion but he fully apologized - we aren't Hypixel, we aren't HCTeams, and we're not the Minecraft police - who are we to deny him that apology?
Who are you to deny anyone who apologizes in their appeal?
Hivlik wrote
hacking for fun just to troll people, or low key cheating to hit the top of the leaderboards?
Not sure when that difference has ever mattered on Badlion?
Your counterarguments against cringe cake aren't that convincing…
Posted on 16 April 2016 - 03:19 PM
cringiecake wrote
Not invalid.
Just influenced by your relationship with him, nulling them irrelevant as bias shouldn't have a place when it comes to bans.
But i dont know why i care anymore, not the end of the world.
Just influenced by your relationship with him, nulling them irrelevant as bias shouldn't have a place when it comes to bans.
But i dont know why i care anymore, not the end of the world.
Yeah of course I'm biased, which is why I back up my reasoning with logic. This is the entire basis of empirical reasoning, and you just don't like it because your logic has holes. I'm not saying I'm not biased; I'm saying that, beyond my bias, I have very good reasoning to opine the way I do.
Last edited on 16 April 2016 - 03:48 PM by Morsinius
Hivlik wrote
Let me ask you what's worse: hacking for fun just to troll people, or low key cheating to hit the top of the leaderboards?
There is no better or worse here because they're the same thing. If you want to look at this from an unbiased perspective, consider the idea that there is no difference between these two situations you've presented. This isn't a question of reason and intention, it's about action and result. Yes, perhaps I'd see differently if I looked at this from a moral standpoint, but this is a matter that has been predecided by Badlion's rules. If I hack to get to the top of the leaderboards, I break the rules and potentially ruin someone's gameplay experience. If I hack for my own amusement, I break the rules and potentially ruin someone's gameplay experience. It's the same thing because I accomplish the same thing by doing either.
Hivlik wrote
He just hacked to troll people, it just happened to be something he could entertain people with. And regardless, he waited the normal amount of time for any IP banned player to wait to get appealed.
The bolded part is all you need for this argument. Whether or not he entertained people by hacking is beside the point and irrelevant when factoring in the rules the server's set in advance.
Last edited on 16 April 2016 - 04:32 PM by cringiecake
Hivlik wrote
cringiecake wrote...
Yeah of course I'm biased, which is why I back up my reasoning with logic.
The logic being
Anonymous Quote
Let me ask you what's worse: hacking for fun just to troll people, or low key cheating to hit the top of the leaderboards?
Anonymous Quote
He just hacked to troll people, it just happened to be something he could entertain people with.
Two other very smart individuals very kindly picked this apart themselves, so I'm not going to bother writing my own as i agree with them completely.
Hivlik wrote
This is the entire basis of empirical reasoning, and you just don't like it because your logic has holes. I'm not saying I'm not biased; I'm saying that, beyond my bias, I have very good reasoning to opine the way I do.
Except that reasoning is broken and wrong, which goes against what i was told when i was staff member and what always has been, and hopefully always will be, something Badlion has never recognised as a less severe form or intention of rule breaking.
Which means it just comes down to your reasoning not being made on logic or rational thinking, but rather friendships and bias.
Last edited on 16 April 2016 - 10:46 PM by *deleted-96553
Automatically DeletedPosted on 16 April 2016 - 10:58 PM
Morsinius wrote
There is no better or worse here because they're the same thing. If you want to look at this from an unbiased perspective, consider the idea that there is no difference between these two situations you've presented. This isn't a question of reason and intention, it's about action and result. Yes, perhaps I'd see differently if I looked at this from a moral standpoint, but this is a matter that has been predecided by Badlion's rules. If I hack to get to the top of the leaderboards, I break the rules and potentially ruin someone's gameplay experience. If I hack for my own amusement, I break the rules and potentially ruin someone's gameplay experience. It's the same thing because I accomplish the same thing by doing either.
Yes, if you look at this solely from the scope of the rules page, they are exactly the same. But I don't think that's what the argument here is - as far as I can see, the OP is proposing that Livenator should not be treated as a normal hacker, considering he's made content encouraging people to cheat on Badlion and has benefited from it. My stance wasn't just that he should be unbanned - of course, that's the following implication - but it was that he should be treated as any other hacker on Badlion. I don't think a good argument is "because he's just like any other hacker!" I think a good argument explains exactly why he's just like any other hacker, or, as I seem to have argued, isn't even as bad as the average hacker. Does that make sense?
Posted on 17 April 2016 - 12:03 AM
Hivlik wrote
Yes, if you look at this solely from the scope of the rules page, they are exactly the same. But I don't think that's what the argument here is - as far as I can see, the OP is proposing that Livenator should not be treated as a normal hacker, considering he's made content encouraging people to cheat on Badlion and has benefited from it. My stance wasn't just that he should be unbanned - of course, that's the following implication - but it was that he should be treated as any other hacker on Badlion. I don't think a good argument is "because he's just like any other hacker!" I think a good argument explains exactly why he's just like any other hacker, or, as I seem to have argued, isn't even as bad as the average hacker. Does that make sense?
I hadn't read the original post actually, but I was simply responding to this post and what I saw after that: "At the end of the day in a text appeal, you can never really hear any emotion unless it's masterfully written, and we just can't ask that of every person appealing. But Livenator not only stopped hacking on badlion but he fully apologized - we aren't Hypixel, we aren't HCTeams, and we're not the Minecraft police - who are we to deny him that apology? Let me ask you what's worse: hacking for fun just to troll people, or low key cheating to hit the top of the leaderboards?"
You're arguing more so that he "isn't even as bad as the average hacker" rather than "he's just like any other hacker." I disagree there, and that's what the argument is—at least, the one I'm responding to. There are two different arguments here, but I'm too tired to point them out and explain what they are. All I know for sure is that OP's argument hasn't much to do with what happened with the rest of the thread. I think. I'm ready to scourge my eyes with chocolate ice cream and lemon drops, but I know you wouldn't be willing to.
Last edited on 17 April 2016 - 01:09 AM by Hivlik
Morsinius wrote
Hivlik wrote...
I hadn't read the original post actually, but I was simply responding to this post and what I saw after that: "At the end of the day in a text appeal, you can never really hear any emotion unless it's masterfully written, and we just can't ask that of every person appealing. But Livenator not only stopped hacking on badlion but he fully apologized - we aren't Hypixel, we aren't HCTeams, and we're not the Minecraft police - who are we to deny him that apology? Let me ask you what's worse: hacking for fun just to troll people, or low key cheating to hit the top of the leaderboards?"
You're arguing more so that he "isn't even as bad as the average hacker" rather than "he's just like any other hacker." I disagree there, and that's what the argument is—at least, the one I'm responding to. There are two different arguments here, but I'm too tired to point them out and explain what they are. All I know for sure is that OP's argument hasn't much to do with what happened with the rest of the thread. I think. I'm ready to scourge my eyes with chocolate ice cream and lemon drops, but I know you wouldn't be willing to.
The biggest thing to realize is that, regarding the OP and any real stance to keep Livenator banned, their logic was all based on the position that he's worse than the average hacker, which is not a stance based on the rules. It's one that would be a special case, and it's an argument based on a logic beyond that of what's written in the guidelines of the Badlion rules. So I argued on the same platform, but from a different stance. It's not a perfect argument, of course, but it's a much stronger one than an argument that's based on something that would have ideally, in the OP's eyes, been nullified by this special case scenario.