Last edited on 18 November 2016 - 07:42 AM by Ryankoo1
Is Masters the equivalent to 2700 elo? No. I will objectively explain why 2700 elo is much harder to achieve than masters.First off I wanna say that mmr does a fine job (perhaps even better than elo) at placing players in its skill group. The system works perfectly with 99.999% of all players. However, for the remaining 0.001% of players such as Ihacklite, mmr goes from a great system to a broken one.
Reason 1, You get drained ALOT Less
The punishment for losing is no where near as harsh as it was with elo. With mmr, the most amount of points possible to lose from a single match is 214. Assuming 13 points is the equivalent to 1 elo, we can calculate that 214 points is around 16.5 elo (214/13 = 16.4615384615). Meaning if Ihacklite lost, he would lose only half the amount of points as he would with elo (31). Yet, the amount of points he gains from a single match remains the same as he would with elo (13 points is around 1 elo).
Reason 2, with a 16.45+ kdr, you can continuously gain points.
With mmr, 16.4615384615 is the ‘magic’ kdr (214/13 = 16.4615384615). If you can sustain a kdr higher than 16.4615384615, you can continuously gain points no matter how high ranked you get. With elo, 31 was the magic kdr (31/1 = 31). Meaning you needed a higher kdr than 31 to continuously gain elo. If we look at ihacklite’s no debuff kdr (932/57) it is 16.35, nearly exactly the ‘magic’ kdr.
Reason 3, It is practically impossible to get deranked
If you lose a match and your points goes under 0, instead of immediately getting deranked you get a second chance. As long as win your next match, you’ll stay at your current ranking regardless of how many points you lost prior. So essentially, as long as you don’t lose 2 matches consecutively, you will never derank. For players like ihacklite who have a insanely high kdr, losing 2 matches consecutively can easily be avoided.
@iHackLiTE @Unwise thoughts?
Last edited on 18 November 2016 - 07:37 AM by iHackLiTE
you forgot about the part where you play against people near your rank more often.also, even thought the max you can get drained is 214, you can sometimes STILL get drained 214 even by someone with a better rank than you, depending on the situation. There are still some factors of mmr left in, otherwise opponents will gain/lose the same amount, but they dont always do. i dont know exactly how it works though, i just know it is that way.
also, my kdr isnt something you should rely on, since most of my nodebuff deaths happened very early in the season (around when i was emerald 5 or less) to lag spikes, because badlion had yet to move away from ovh, or even fix any lag related issue for s14.
and about the 2 consecutive losses to derank- thats not necessarily true. its more common that i fight the same player more than once rather than a different player every time. with that, if the person happens to be better or cheating, its easy for me to get deranked. anyone able to drain me once can potentially do it two times in a row.
just keep this in mind if you make edits:
if i died to a silver 1, i would lose 214 points. if i beat a silver 1, i would gain 13 points
if i died to vykz, i would lose 214 points. if i beat vykz, i would gain 100 points…
which really doesnt make much sense. i lose 214 regardless of how good the player is. if bean wasnt banned for cheating and beat me when we were both diamond, i would lose 214 points still
Posted on 18 November 2016 - 08:25 AM
iHackLiTE wrote
also, even thought the max you can get drained is 214, you can sometimes STILL get drained 214 even by someone with a better rank than you, depending on the situation. There are still some factors of mmr left in, otherwise opponents will gain/lose the same amount, but they dont always do. i dont know exactly how it works though, i just know it is that way.
also, my kdr isnt something you should rely on, since most of my nodebuff deaths happened very early in the season (around when i was emerald 5 or less) to lag spikes, because badlion had yet to move away from ovh, or even fix any lag related issue for s14.
and about the 2 consecutive losses to derank- thats not necessarily true. its more common that i fight the same player more than once rather than a different player every time. with that, if the person happens to be better or cheating, its easy for me to get deranked. anyone able to drain me once can potentially do it two times in a row.
just keep this in mind if you make edits:
if i died to a silver 1, i would lose 214 points. if i beat a silver 1, i would gain 13 points
if i died to vykz, i would lose 214 points. if i beat vykz, i would gain 100 points…
which really doesnt make much sense. i lose 214 regardless of how good the player is. if bean wasnt banned for cheating and beat me when we were both diamond, i would lose 214 points still
Yeah you have some good counter arguments, such as the fact you're more likely to queue against a better player/cheater consecutively than not. But let's not forget that the problem can be entirely avoided if you stop queuing after the first loss. If you were to lose to, let's say danteh, and the next match's result determined whether you stay masters or not, I'm 100% sure you'd stop queuing and rather queue another time.
We can both agree that the current mmr system is broken, but its not clear whether you think masters is truely the equivalent to 2700 elo or not. I'm genuinely interested, since you've experienced the grind first hand and anyone knew the answer, it surely would be you.
This is abit off topic, but I wanna make it clear that the points Ive said on this post were purely my assumptions. Obviously I've never and never will be skilled enough to experience what grinding for mmr feels like for masters. It's more than possible I'm wrong and masters truely is the equialvent to 2700 Elo. But the beauty of the badlion forums is I can write controversial threads like this and have, for the most part, civil arguments with others with similar interests.
Anyways regardless whether or not masters truely is the equialvent to 2700 Elo, no one can downplay the fact what you've achieved so far is fucking insane. Keep doing what ya doing :^)
Posted on 18 November 2016 - 08:35 AM
haha math about a block game l o lPosted on 18 November 2016 - 08:38 AM
SuperNeil64 wrote
Block game > social life
Posted on 18 November 2016 - 03:24 PM
MMR is way harder than elo. You face players around your skill level so for people to get masters or come close is greatPosted on 18 November 2016 - 03:40 PM
i find it just as difficult, maybe SLIGHTLY easier, and by slightly i mean like a difference of 50-75 elo (masters being as easy as 2625 to get)theres still about just as many players in the 2700 region, and all other regions for that matter, so its about the same
Last edited on 18 November 2016 - 04:11 PM by FunkyFactions
Emendings wrote
Not for the people at the very top, if anything getting higher ranks is even easier for the people at the very top with MMR.
Pretty sure a little while back some high diamond player (around 2500-2600 elo) got matched with a bronze 5 (around 1000 elo) in build. Back when elo was a thing, the most elo you could be away from someone and still get matched with them was 720, but with the new system there doesn't seem to be limits.
Last edited on 18 November 2016 - 04:22 PM by iHackLiTE
FunkyFactions wrote
Emendings wrote...
this is incredibly rare and should hardly even be considered
Posted on 18 November 2016 - 04:49 PM
Automatically DeletedPosted on 18 November 2016 - 05:33 PM
I saw people with poor season 12 stats that are now top ranked players in season 14Posted on 12 December 2016 - 12:38 AM
Imo badlion should make mmr harder for high ranked players next season, or there'll be players hitting masters 10,000Last edited on 12 December 2016 - 12:47 AM by Archybot
You keep forgetting ELO didn't have a matchmaker while MMR does - 2700 is easier to obtain with a matchmaker then Masters with a matchmaker.For example, to go from 1400 to 2400 in build required 63 matches with similar players, which you would mostly be able to get with a matchmaker. You could literally skyrocket in ELO if it had a matchmaker, which is another reason we switched to MMR - you go up slower but you also go down slower.
I laugh when people say MMR removed the grind when in reality it was the matchmaker, the most requested addition, removed the "grind"
Posted on 12 December 2016 - 02:26 AM
I disagree with Archy a bit here - the 720 cap on elo also made elo a fair bit more difficult, and I think many people ignore that.Yeah, Masters is probably a fair bit easier than 2700, but who knows.
Posted on 12 December 2016 - 02:46 AM
iHackLiTE wrote
FunkyFactions wrote...
this is incredibly rare and should hardly even be considered
Posted on 12 December 2016 - 02:48 AM
Unwise wrote
Yeah, Masters is probably a fair bit easier than 2700, but who knows.
Last edited on 12 December 2016 - 03:13 AM by MasterGberry
Mfw the idiots on our forums can't get over elo vs mmr and are forgetting that the point of a rating system is toRANK THE PLAYERS BASED ON THEIR SKILLS!
>_>
On that note, not a single person in the top 10 is complaining about either system lol, just a bunch of random low ranking players >_>
Posted on 12 December 2016 - 03:31 AM
MasterGberry wrote
RANK THE PLAYERS BASED ON THEIR SKILLS!
>_>
On that note, not a single person in the top 10 is complaining about either system lol, just a bunch of random low ranking players >_>
Posted on 12 December 2016 - 03:54 AM
Yea wrote
MasterGberry wrote...
No, that's because low level players find nothing but excuses for why they aren't ranked higher instead of getting better at the game.
Posted on 12 December 2016 - 04:18 AM
MasterGberry wrote
Yea wrote...
No, that's because low level players find nothing but excuses for why they aren't ranked higher instead of getting better at the game.