Last edited on 22 January 2017 - 08:23 AM by euree

INTRODUCTION
Subjectively to myself, the bow is an absolutely disgusting addition to the BuildUHC kit. Not the bow itself, but specifically the amount you can use it (64 arrows). When you want to be fighting someone with sword and rod and they are constantly pelting arrows at you, how does that constitute as you being bad at the bow? I see myself as good with the bow, but that doesn't mean I want to be using it in BuildUHC. People act like BuildUHC is meant to be a "balanced" and "all-round" kit and I have no idea how being given the right to use 64 arrows in a single match is fair. When people are asked the question: "Do you think using all 64 arrows in a BuildUHC fight is over the top and "sweaty"? Everyone says yes. So why should you be able to play like that? The arrow limit should be lowered to a point where using all arrows would not suggest a "sweaty" play style. Using all 8 arrows in SG isn't "sweaty", as annoying as it maybe it still makes sense and seems somewhat balanced. Using 64 arrows in a BuildUHC match however is appalling. Players should not be given the option to be able to use 64 ARROWS. That isn't balance.

REBUTTAL OF COMMON ARGUMENTS
1)
Argument: "The BuildUHC kit is meant to represent a UHC environment where people have several stacks of arrows".
Rebuttal: UHC rarely involves the bow much at all, the game just does not encourage the use of the bow and bow spammers never win UHCs, look at a highlights video from Danteh, jdegoederen, and all the other UHC players. They never use bow, unless they're just messing around to piss people off (like Danteh's video "UHC Shorts #7 - no1. kohi archer"). Just because they have the ability to use 3 stacks of arrows doesn't mean that should be a good representation of what UHC is meant to be like. The second rebuttal follows;
2)
Argument: "People have several stacks of arrows in a UHC"
Rebuttal: People also have stacks of healing in a UHC, so we might as well add that too! Reducing the healing to 6-3 means you should also reduce the arrows to not be as overpowered as they are. It should all correlate, Badlion took all of the healing out of the ladder but they kept all the arrows it seems.
3)
Argument: "How about you stop complaining about bow spamming and learn to use the bow yourself?"
Rebuttal: I can definitely relate to this argument and its flaws. I am good at using the bow, however that does not mean I want to use it. The amount of arrows [64] encourages such a boring and passive playstyle, and people blame the meta instead of the kit imbalance. You can't make people melee, people can choose to play however they want. You can however, reduce the amount of arrows that people can shoot before being forced to engage in melee. This would decrease the amount of an advantage "sweating" has over actual skill such as rod timing, aim and click speed.

MY ARGUMENTS
1)
INFLUENTIAL PEOPLE'S OPINIONS (Appeal to Authority Trigger Warning)
The #1 BuildUHC player, Danteh, has said previously that he has no problem with bow ladders such as Archer and UHC but that bow should NOT be a primary weapon for people to use in BuildUHC. It doesn't fit the kit, BuildUHC should be primarily a melee kit as well as a little bit of a bow kit because having people wanting to sword rush against bow spammers just does not work. Almost any youtuber or decent player will tell you that BuildUHC is a lot about how "sweaty" you play and how good your "tactic" is as opposed to your skill level (case in point @iHackLiTE ). If you honestly think that 64 arrows is fair then I want to see your reasoning behind it. I don't know what it is that makes the high tier staff love the bow, perhaps it's the fact that they originated from the overcast network, but what I do know is that there are MANY threads asking for a bowless BuildUHC or for BuildUHC's arrow limit to be nerfed, as well as many Youtubers and high-placed players who argue that the bow is just stupid.
2)
HOW THE ENVIRONMENT AFFECTS THE META
In a UHC, your goal is not to bow spam and drain all of your opponent's healing until you both are out of healing and have ruined your chances of winning. Your goal is to drop your opponent as fast as possible so you can profit off of the fight by acquiring more healing after killing your opponent than before you engaged in combat. In BuildUHC there is no one else you have to worry about, apart from one person you have to kill. The meta changes completely from "I must kill him as fast as I can before he consumes all his healing" to "I have to make him chug as much as I can so I guess I will just bow spam him". You don't have to worry about a broader picture in BuildUHC. This is why UHC promotes melee based fights and BuildUHC promotes very slow-paced sweaty bow fights.

CONCLUSION
I beg of you to actually come up with some decent arguments as to why 64 arrows should be a justified amount as I honestly feel it is too much, and I am certainly not the only one. Please don't instantly deny this, I see myself as quite an open minded individual and who knows, maybe you'll compel me to agree with the current arrow limit! I debate with reason and I don't want any people to come on this thread and trash it, you will really look like a fool.

Posted on 09 December 2016 - 11:51 PM

This argument is based on reason, I really don't want any stupid people using ad hominems or other petty fallacies in an attempt to humour my post.

Posted on 10 December 2016 - 03:31 AM

"I am good at using the bow, however that does not mean I want to use it."

Same goes for bow players, people who are heavily bow based may not wanna use the sword as much so they rely on bow.

""Do you think using all 64 arrows in a BuildUHC fight is over the top and "sweaty"? Everyone says yes."

Who is this everyone? In higher rank fights people do go below 10 arrows you should be able to play the game as you want

"You can't make people melee, people can choose to play however they want."

Yes thats the beauty of it people can choose however they wanna play. People should't be forced to melee nor bow and bow is a lot easier to counter than sword in build


"The #1 BuildUHC player, Danteh, has said previously that he has no problem with bow ladders such as Archer and UHC but that bow should NOT be a primary weapon for people to use in BuildUHC."

That just says it all if the bow was primary Danteh wouldnt be rank 1 in the first place. If the bow was primary people like xLucqs/Gotovo would be a lot higher on the leaderboards. As I always say please try the no sword challenge then the no bow. See which one is easier

"having people wanting to sword rush against bow spammers just does not work."
Why not? You can either block up or push them into a corner with the rod or just bow back and change your strategy based on how he will react to bowing back.


"Almost any youtuber or decent player will tell you that BuildUHC is a lot about how "sweaty" you play and how good your "tactic" is as opposed to your skill level"

"Sweating" isnt just a build term. The SG ladder also revolves around sweating as well. Badlion can't just measure your skill level and just give you the win you have to fight for it + since when are "Youtubers" a good source of information?

You have spent a lot of time in this thread I see and its nice to see people work hard on their threads instead of just crying and wanting it to be changed (however much I disagree with the thread)

Posted on 10 December 2016 - 03:38 AM

I used to be really against this but nowadays the amount of people who play like their life is on the line is just too much.
So yeah I would love to see it being reduced to 32.
BUT.
If they reduce arrows they should remove one of the lava buckets. I am a lava spammer myself and I see that it can be extremely overpowered.

Posted on 10 December 2016 - 03:49 AM

reb xd

Posted on 10 December 2016 - 03:58 AM

I actually got much better at lava just by watching reb's videos.

Posted on 10 December 2016 - 04:40 AM

Personal thoughts - I dislike the overuse of bow in Build, but I see two main counterarguments. For one, I find it pretty easy to avoid damage by walling up and bowing back. Two, in the event that you come across a hacker, bowspam helps even out the playing field for that match.

I'm personally torn on this subject.

Last edited on 10 December 2016 - 05:18 AM by euree

Archer, Iron, UHC.


This is contradictory to my statement as I already said you can't change the way people play, and most of the time the reason people use so many arrows is because one person starts bowing and then the other player gets the urge to bow as well because he doesn't want to lose, and then the fight becomes a boring archer duel.


Sword has the easiest counter in BuildUHC actually, all you do is hold down right click on your bow and they can't get close to you. The fact that players can play HOWEVER they want means there should be some boundaries set in stone. It's no secret that a large portion of the community sees bow spamming as a scummy way of winning when you're not good, it doesn't take any skill to be good at bow when you're just shooting someone who is attempting to melee you. That's not bow skill. Bow skill is when the other person bows back, and you can't blame people for not wanting to bow back as it's very boring especially in a ladder such as build where the main meta is meant to be a melee kit with bow as a secondary, now there are people using all 64 arrows every single fight and people like you are saying that those tactics should be looked up to as some "genius strategy" to beat players better than yourself.


While it's true that Danteh is primarily a melee player and prefers it to archery, this does not dictate whether the bow is overpowered or not. If you have seen through Danteh's matches, he very frequently gets "sweated" and "tryharded" on by people who really aren't any good which is the reason why he's pretty much quit the game. It's really not fun wanting to play a certain way on BuildUHC and pretty much being denied that style of play. He didn't just stand there and burn himself in lava every time he got bowed, he bowed back of course, because he cares a lot about his stats. As do I, I've been bow spammed before, and sure I know how to handle it to a basic extent. Check my account, I have 20-0 in BuildUHC and am one of the most skilled/well known players from the AU region.


1. "Blocking up" temporarily prevents you from being shot, however it further slows down the tempo of the match and is extremely boring, and if they really want to win they won't even push you despite the wall you've created.
2. "Push them into a corner with the rod" damn that sounds easy! I'll give that a try! Nope. Any decent player who's mastered the art of bow spamming players better than themselves can avoid the very corners of the map I'm sure.
3. "Bowing back" is a complete contradiction. I'm not retarded, in fact I already know about all the very amateur tactics that you've listed, but this one out of all of them makes the least sense. I've stated earlier in this specific post that I do bow back since that's usually my only choice, and not going to lie, I usually win the bow engagement. Do i have fun doing it? Not usually, especially in comparison to when I just sword rush my ass off on an alt and take down a really good player by pressuring the crap out of them, that is.


I'm aware you can sweat the SG ladder and to be quite honest it's nowhere near as bad once you bait their fns. All they can do is shoot 8 arrows and use their rod 64 times before being completely screwed. As much as I'd love for fns to be removed from SG and for the ladder to have a complete revamp, that's for a different thread. (And the SG kit is probably going to get changed at some point anyway due to literally 90% of the community despising of the fns in the SG ladder). The reason why YouTubers' opinions matter more than the regular person is because YouTubers are very influential on the growth of Badlion, as well as them usually having acquired their online prosperity from being an experienced and skilled pvper or having well thought out commentaries and topics. Good players' opinions matter because they are the top-tier skilled players who know what can be done to each ladder in order for the ladder to be balanced, competitive and skill based.


Thank you, I do like to think out my posts rather than making low quality "shitposts" that get you nowhere other than having a reputation for being immature and another locked thread. Feel free to rebut these points too as I do think this is a good discussion.

Posted on 10 December 2016 - 05:15 AM

A bow belongs in Build
64 arrows do not
Neither does lava




Lava and 64 arrows in Build created a ladder that requires having to play like the biggest bitch to win, lava just needs to be COMPLETELY removed imo, some people are useless without lava because all they can do is spam it. We also can't forget that in a real UHC nobody really even uses lava. The amount of arrows in Build needs to be reduced from 64 to maybe 32, I actually prefer bowing to melee but it gets to the point where people riddle you with arrows at every point of the match and it became extremely annoying

I agree with you. +1

Posted on 10 December 2016 - 05:54 AM

Don't have to worry about the 2nd one in Badlion Premium :D
And I think the whole "walling up" thing is ultimately just a really boring technique to do just so you don't get bow spammed to death. If for example there were 32 arrows the games would be so much sharper and more exciting. Sure walling up works to a certain extent, but it doesn't work when your opponent just sits back and waits for you to come out from your wall, then you have to put up with being bow spammed again. If it was 32 arrows at least bow spammers would only be able to do half of the damage, and people would be more willing to play less irritatingly and just fight I think. I always liked having the bow there in case of hackers as despite their infrequency, it is helpful to be able to shoot 64 arrows into a hacker. I did make this thread now though because Badlion Premium is coming out and we don't have to worry about hackers anymore, we can focus on making all the ladders as skill based, balanced and exciting as possible.

Last edited on 31 December 2016 - 09:15 PM by crusaders

@euree You had a reputation of being the most defensive/bow based player in au back in s11 - 12

But yes, I agree with you

Posted on 10 December 2016 - 07:29 AM

That classifies as an ad hominem tu quoque young man, you're on thin ice.

Posted on 10 December 2016 - 07:36 AM

dank

Posted on 10 December 2016 - 08:35 AM

I don't understand a word your saying.

Posted on 10 December 2016 - 08:42 AM

Your cognitive ability isn't up to par with my superior intelligence I'm afraid.

Posted on 10 December 2016 - 08:45 AM

How about a 5 second cool down between arrows being shot?

Posted on 10 December 2016 - 08:47 AM

ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
that is possibly
the worst idea
i have ever
heard

Posted on 10 December 2016 - 08:49 AM

Reason :P?

Posted on 10 December 2016 - 08:57 AM

GG10

Posted on 10 December 2016 - 08:58 AM

+1, it should be reduced to 32 or at least 48 arrows