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Special Developer Log #4 - Moving away from ELO and S13
Posted on 14 July 2016 - 03:59 PM
BaneOfArthropods wrote
Ok, so you tell me; how often do 1400 Elos beat 2k Elos?
Oh ok, that's your line of thought.
A perfect (wins 50% of the time against other players of the same rating) 1400 beating a perfect 2000 has ~3% likelihood. This does not necessarily mean that the 2000 is X times as skilled as the 1400, only that the 2000 is X times as likely to win. Once again, skill is vastly more complicated than a net rating of all of a player's attributes.
Take sports games. They often rate players according to numerous categories based on perceived skills – Speed, strength, stamina, etc. You could theoretically do that for players on Badlion too, taking data such as DPS, bow accuracy, combo frequency, blockhitting, lava accuracy, time spent on fire, whatever, which may or may not lead to an accurate profile of a player's skill, but even then vital components such as positioning are immeasurable, or at the very least, loosely approximable.
It's hard to quantify skill, which is exactly why it's almost impossible to say that anyone is as many times skilled as anyone else. Such a statement is pretty meaningless when we're dealing with something as chaotic and dimensional as skill.
…
And MasterGberry, where is that Badlion rating API I *still* want? :P
Last edited on 15 July 2016 - 03:12 AM by SmellyPenguin
MasterGberry wrote
Red = ELO
Green = New MMR System
The left axis (Vertical) is the number of players.
The bottom axis (Horizontal) is the rating of the player.
@crna_glava No, Danteh is the outlier on the right lol
Posted on 14 July 2016 - 06:09 PM
BaneOfArthropods wrote
Thanks for telling me my life is fucked in the nicest way possible.
Maybe I'll figure it out on my own someday.
Maybe I'll figure it out on my own someday.
http://memesvault.com/wp-content/uploads/What-Meme-13.jpg
Posted on 14 July 2016 - 07:27 PM
R3KoN wrote
BaneOfArthropods wrote...
Oh ok, that's your line of thought.
A perfect (wins 50% of the time against other players of the same rating) 1400 beating a perfect 2000 has ~3% likelihood. This does not necessarily mean that the 2000 is X times as skilled as the 1400, only that the 2000 is X times as likely to win. Once again, skill is vastly more complicated than a net rating of all of a player's attributes.
Take sports games. They often rate players according to numerous categories based on perceived skills – Speed, strength, stamina, etc. You could theoretically do that for players on Badlion too, taking data such as DPS, bow accuracy, combo frequency, blockhitting, lava accuracy, time spent on fire, whatever, which may or may not lead to an accurate profile of a player's skill, but even then vital components such as positioning are immeasurable, or at the very least, loosely approximable.
It's hard to quantify skill, which is exactly why it's almost impossible to say that anyone is as many times skilled as anyone else. Such a statement is pretty meaningless when we're dealing with something as chaotic and dimensional as skill.
…
And MasterGberry, where is that Badlion rating API I *still* want? :P
While that isn't necessarily the "Right" way to look at it, all that matters is if people understand me. I feel like I've been very straight forward. I don't care if Player X is better than Player Y. What I care about is does Player X have a 75% or a 95% chance of beating Player Y. And somehow you seem to be the only one to understand me so far. #MyLifeMan
Posted on 14 July 2016 - 07:27 PM
MasterGberry wrote
BaneOfArthropods wrote...
http://memesvault.com/wp-content/uploads/What-Meme-13.jpg
How do you expect me to react: Oh, YAY it looks like the #1 most interesting thing in my life for the past decade is 100% irrelevant! Hype!!!!! You've saved me from a 13 year slump! Now I can get on with LIVING!!!
If the owner of my favorite server thinks the only thing I care about (win probability) is anti-competitive/irrelevant and has no interest in doing it (even when relatively easy, and I'm willing to pay), then I can pretty much assume it's not going to happen.
If the only thing I care about on my favorite server is about to become impossible, then my life is fucked.
I don't care if Player X is better than Player Y. What I care about is does Player X have a 75% or a 95% chance of beating Player Y. You've told me that this isn't going to happen. Whatever, my life already sucked. I'm used to it.
Posted on 14 July 2016 - 10:21 PM
Say I am Bronze 2, I feel like without a numerical rating that I can see, I won't know how high to aim for the next fights and how much I have to improve in order to reach Bronze 1.Say my friend is in Bronze 2, and I'm also in Bronze 2. We are competing on who will get to Bronze 1 the fastest. We won't know who is higher than who until we reach Bronze 1, which kind of kills off the competition.
Posted on 14 July 2016 - 10:26 PM
Will there still be a leaderboard?Posted on 14 July 2016 - 10:50 PM
jpro7 wrote
Will there still be a leaderboard?
Posted on 14 July 2016 - 10:54 PM
Rip Dantehs 3kPosted on 14 July 2016 - 11:47 PM
BaneOfArthropods wrote
MasterGberry wrote...
How do you expect me to react: Oh, YAY it looks like the #1 most interesting thing in my life for the past decade is 100% irrelevant! Hype!!!!! You've saved me from a 13 year slump! Now I can get on with LIVING!!!
If the owner of my favorite server thinks the only thing I care about (win probability) is anti-competitive/irrelevant and has no interest in doing it (even when relatively easy, and I'm willing to pay), then I can pretty much assume it's not going to happen.
If the only thing I care about on my favorite server is about to become impossible, then my life is fucked.
I don't care if Player X is better than Player Y. What I care about is does Player X have a 75% or a 95% chance of beating Player Y. You've told me that this isn't going to happen. Whatever, my life already sucked. I'm used to it.
Even now we don't tell you who has what % chance of winning. That is your own assumption you draw. You can continue to draw the assumption yourself. The ranks are spaced out with the same amount of rating per rank anyways.
Posted on 14 July 2016 - 11:48 PM
Squaret wrote
Say I am Bronze 2, I feel like without a numerical rating that I can see, I won't know how high to aim for the next fights and how much I have to improve in order to reach Bronze 1.
Say my friend is in Bronze 2, and I'm also in Bronze 2. We are competing on who will get to Bronze 1 the fastest. We won't know who is higher than who until we reach Bronze 1, which kind of kills off the competition.
Say my friend is in Bronze 2, and I'm also in Bronze 2. We are competing on who will get to Bronze 1 the fastest. We won't know who is higher than who until we reach Bronze 1, which kind of kills off the competition.
Not sure if i mentioned it in the thread but I have been thinking about putting a % bar to completion for the next rank promotion.
Last edited on 15 July 2016 - 06:34 AM by Shnoopy
MasterGberry wrote
Squaret wrote...
Not sure if i mentioned it in the thread but I have been thinking about putting a % bar to completion for the next rank promotion.
Yes! That is a fantastic idea please make it like that! That would make it easier to understand and people will be able to set goals such as I am going to try and hit 90% today! Also please show the % in the leaderboards as well. Having a % in leaderboards will make it easier to show the difference between players making it a lot more competitive! example ->
Rank 4: PlayerA | Diamond 1 - 58%
Rank 5: PlayerB | Diamond 1 - 34%
Posted on 15 July 2016 - 06:39 AM
MasterGberry wrote
Even now we don't tell you who has what % chance of winning. That is your own assumption you draw. You can continue to draw the assumption yourself. The ranks are spaced out with the same amount of rating per rank anyways.
You can figure out the probability for winning any other match the same way. It's not just some "assumption I draw myself", it's literally baked into the system itself.
If I don't have the base numbers for the new system I won't be able to make the calculation. And I'm a numbers guy, I have no interest in just making something up.
Sorry about raging, earlier. It's not your fault, just having a bad day. xD
Posted on 15 July 2016 - 06:41 AM
Shnoopy wrote
MasterGberry wrote...
Yes! That is a fantastic idea please make it like that! That would make it easier to understand and people will be able to set goals such as I am going to try and hit 90% today! Also please show the % in the leaderboards as well. Having a % in leaderboards will make it easier to show the difference between players making it a lot more competitive! example ->
Rank 4: PlayerA | Diamond 1 - 58%
Rank 5: PlayerB | Diamond 1 - 34%
Posted on 15 July 2016 - 11:15 AM
xIronMatt wrote
next time my idiot friend says "ew the knockback" im sending his ass here
AMEN!
Posted on 15 July 2016 - 02:29 PM
HYPELast edited on 15 July 2016 - 03:33 PM by nittyM
For the actual ranking system, I noticed a couple things I'm a bit confused about.1) Does the ranking system go Bronze 5, Silver 5, Gold 5, Emerald 5, Diamond 5… Bronze 4, Silver 4…. and so on…. or does it go Bronze 5, Bronze 4, Bronze 3, and so on??
2) If the first option is true. If I'm Emerald 2, will I only duel Gold 2, Emerald 2 and Diamond 2?
if the second option is true. Say I'm a Gold 4. Do I duel Gold 3s, 4s, and 5s only?
Thank you in advance.
Also, what would all the rankings be in comparison to ELO? Like, Would Silver be 1400-1600?
i also noticed i spelled "noticed" wrong. smh.
Posted on 15 July 2016 - 08:44 PM
Shnoopy wrote
MasterGberry wrote...
Yes! That is a fantastic idea please make it like that! That would make it easier to understand and people will be able to set goals such as I am going to try and hit 90% today! Also please show the % in the leaderboards as well. Having a % in leaderboards will make it easier to show the difference between players making it a lot more competitive! example ->
Rank 4: PlayerA | Diamond 1 - 58%
Rank 5: PlayerB | Diamond 1 - 34%
Posted on 16 July 2016 - 01:48 AM
Is the ranking based on your numerical rating alone, or how you rank compared to other people? Like (not using real #'s here, just examples), is a 2200 always an Emerald 2 no matter what, or is it based on your percentile of skill among all players, so that Emerald 2 in build might be the equivalent of 2400, while Emerald 2 in vanilla might be the equivalent of 1900?Basically, will it always be x points to get through Silver 2 and y points to get through Bronze 3, or will it change as the season progresses?
Posted on 16 July 2016 - 02:14 AM
Quizzicals wrote
For the actual ranking system, I noticed a couple things I'm a bit confused about.
1) Does the ranking system go Bronze 5, Silver 5, Gold 5, Emerald 5, Diamond 5… Bronze 4, Silver 4…. and so on…. or does it go Bronze 5, Bronze 4, Bronze 3, and so on??
2) If the first option is true. If I'm Emerald 2, will I only duel Gold 2, Emerald 2 and Diamond 2?
if the second option is true. Say I'm a Gold 4. Do I duel Gold 3s, 4s, and 5s only?
Thank you in advance.
Also, what would all the rankings be in comparison to ELO? Like, Would Silver be 1400-1600?
i also noticed i spelled "noticed" wrong. smh.
1) Does the ranking system go Bronze 5, Silver 5, Gold 5, Emerald 5, Diamond 5… Bronze 4, Silver 4…. and so on…. or does it go Bronze 5, Bronze 4, Bronze 3, and so on??
2) If the first option is true. If I'm Emerald 2, will I only duel Gold 2, Emerald 2 and Diamond 2?
if the second option is true. Say I'm a Gold 4. Do I duel Gold 3s, 4s, and 5s only?
Thank you in advance.
Also, what would all the rankings be in comparison to ELO? Like, Would Silver be 1400-1600?
i also noticed i spelled "noticed" wrong. smh.
The second option is how it works.
If you're Gold 4, you will probably be able to duel anyone from Silver 4 through Emerald 4.