Posted on 11 July 2016 - 11:57 PM

Hello players. I have two things I'd like to talk about: Moving away from ELO and why does PvP feel so different in S13. Let's just get right into it.

Moving away from ELO
This has been something the Badlion team tried once and failed at. We have been talking to other game developers and other competitive gaming communities across the internet and almost all of them have one thing in common: No one uses ELO anymore, and almost all of them hide your true MMR behind some arbitrary metal/ranking.

The reasons ELO isn't used across the internet anymore is that it was mostly created for 1v1 Chess, where someone who is ranked lower then you should literally never beat you. ELO also doesn't give a shit about your past matches, it only cares about your current match. While this is great in chess, this isn't great in a game where you can grind out 100's of matches a day.

We are switching to a new system across the network. This system has 6 ranks from lowest to highest: Bronze, Silver, Gold, Emerald, Diamond, and Masters. All but masters have 5 divisions in them (1-5 in roman numerals, also known as I through V), with the lower number being better (Bronze III is worse then Bronze I). This system also requires you to play 20 matches to properly place you, with huge swings to ranking with each match as it narrows down where you belong. The system also might have huge number swings after the initial 20, but they will settle down once the system finds where you belong. The system also accounts for win streaks and loss streaks, when it feels like you no longer belong where you are. This system isn't a flat system, just because you gained 20 doesn't mean your opponent lost 20. This system looks for consistency, so if you lose one in a great while you won't get "drained." You also won't be matched with anyone more then a division away from you under most cases (so Gold 3 will only be matched with Emeralds 3 to Silver 3s)

With this new system, it allows sniping to not happen, it allows hackers to not drain players as much, it allows mistakes that cost you a match, and it rewards you for doing above average. Also according to our game developer sources, moving away from a pure number system should reduce toxicity related to numbers, reduce the anger of losing in a ranked match, and also make people less afraid of playing.

Some examples
Hacker coming through with 100% win rate
If somehow a blatant hacker makes it through the unranked matches, when a hacker goes against you, the system isn't sure where he belongs but knows he should be higher. You lose to the hacker, but since the system knows this, it'll hardly take any points from you since he knows the hacker doesn't belong here (because he has 100%) win rate.

I've won my last 20 in a row, and randomly lag out/spike and lose
The system knows that you are better then your old rating, so it won't hold this match against you much since it's out of your pattern. If you start to lose towards 50/50, it'll start to think it has found your new rating so you can improve.

I'm a 2500 (ELO term) and I randomly lose to a 2000 when I'm being consistent (50/50 w/l) against people in my range
The system knows you belong 2500 since you go 50/50 with them, so it won't take very many points against you for losing to a 2k. Though, if you start losing a lot to people a lot lower then you, it will figure out you don't belong at 2.5k and start lowering you until it finds your new position.

I win about 75% against people near my rating
This is good, the system will be raising your rating until you equalize back to 50/50 and it believes it found where you belong.

I'm 1.8k and I basically lose against everyone higher but beat everyone lower, and go 50/50 with people close to me
The system will know this is where you belong, and you'll basically stay here until you start to show improvement.

So why did you not just add this stuff to ELO?
ELO is a static non-inflation system. If someone gains 14, someone has to lose 14. You cannot just throw additional points into an ELO system without ruining it as it doesn't account for inflation. ELO also doesn't give a shit about previous matches, so by having it account for stuff like this, it makes it not ELO anymore anyways. Also, the reason we don't show numbers is because if we show numbers, we can't do things such as win streaks, loss streaks, and faster placement and readjustment to keep our rating system as fair as possible.

Why does PvP feel different in S13, and what is going to be done to fix it?
Ok, before we even start this topic of networking and minecraft problems, we are going to go over some ground rules and definitions.

Delayed KB - When the server delays issuing KB to players for whatever reason.
Delayed hits - When the server delays issuing "hits" to a player entity.
Hit detection - Term people use to describe combat issues when they really don't know anything about minecraft mechanics and want to appear smart.

Ok, so now that we have that out of our way, let's get right into basic minecraft/networking. Firstly, when a client says "I attacked a player" it sends an attack packet with the ID of the entity it attacked (say I attacked MasterGberry and his entity ID was 1304, I would literally send in networking language "I attacked 1304"). The server gets that packet and processes it on the next available tick (20 ticks per second, or TPS, when the server is doing well). When the server executes that attack, it literally makes sure I am within range of MasterGberry - if I am it validates the attack, if I'm not it doesn't. It does not check direction, it does not check if I was aiming, it does nothing other then check range. When you say hit detection, I say you're an idiot who doesn't know what you're talking about, because literal hit detection is "Am I within range."

Now, so why does PvP feel so damn different on S13. Simple, because you know how when you send a packet to the server, so is every other player, sometimes sending 5-10 a second depending on what they are doing. The server has to execute every packet it has received on the next tick, IN ORDER OF RECEIVED. So when a server has 1k players on, it can have easily 3-4k packets per tick to execute. These take some time, and cause what Badlion Arena actually have - Delayed KB and hits. The reason is because the hits feel delayed because they can sometimes take up to an additional 50ms to execute because of all the packets the server has to process, which makes "hit detection" feel worse. This can make hits feel delayed and sometimes even get canceled, and also makes KB feel delayed because it gets applied later, and because of that the player who was hit has moved forward some which negates some of the KB making it look like he received less KB.

These are issues in S12, but they've been fixed in S13 since we use a multi server system that has no more then 50 people playing on at a time. Fun fact, KB has not actually changed values at all between S12 and S13, but delayed HITS and delayed KB have been fixed since there are only 10-50 people's worth of packets, instead of 850-1000 people's. This makes it appear (and actually is) that people are taking more KB, because KB was delayed along with hits, which made players get KB's less. If you take two players and stand still on S12 and S13, and one hits the other once, they will actually go back the exact same distance.

This sadly means we have to recalculate all our KB values in S13 before we can go live. It looks like we need to reduce KB a lot for non speed ladders, especially ones with projectiles such as rods, and might need to tweak speed ladders a bit.


I hope I've answered the questions in here, feel free to ask any questions you may have if I missed them.

Last edited on 12 July 2016 - 12:04 AM by SadBoy2013

1st

Thank you for making this thread, I hope the complainers realize that this system is way better than the old one :>

Posted on 12 July 2016 - 12:20 AM

In ladders that are less played, will the high players still get matched with low players, or is there a limit of how big the gap has to be, like the 720 elo gap there was?

Posted on 12 July 2016 - 12:25 AM

I feel so much more educated about minecraft after reading this lol

Last edited on 12 July 2016 - 12:28 AM by reb_hi

im confusedd afff

but just a quick question, lets say im in masters, will there be a #1 player there by ranking or smth or will everyone be the same? how will global ranking work and are we able to see whos on top etc, cuz i didnt see it in the post sorry if i missed it

Posted on 12 July 2016 - 12:26 AM

There is a limit but it's kind of broken currently in beta

Posted on 12 July 2016 - 12:32 AM

next time my idiot friend says "ew the knockback" im sending his ass here

Posted on 12 July 2016 - 12:36 AM

Yes there will still be a #1 player because there is actually a hidden number that determines your place in the system. The only way you will be able to see on top is checking the leaderboards.

Posted on 12 July 2016 - 12:36 AM

ah seems nice

Posted on 12 July 2016 - 12:37 AM

alright thanks daddy :v

Posted on 12 July 2016 - 12:39 AM

Elo will always be better than some arbitrary scale that no one understands. They'd better bring back Elo soon or I'll leave for The Park. I was gonna buy Lion for a second acc (I already have it on Monasuko), but now I'm thinking a rank on The Park will be a better investment.

IDK, I've been playing Badlion for 1.5 years so I can wait a month or so for this to be resolved. But if it's not, without Elo there's no point in playing on Badlion, not for me anyway.

I've tried the Beta plenty and, yeah; Elo>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Every arbitrary ranking system ever.

Posted on 12 July 2016 - 12:43 AM

I really like how the new ranking system sounds, im estimating myself as a bronze II :P

If only m***plex had devs like badlion's

Last edited on 14 July 2016 - 02:46 PM by SadBoy2013

cucmber alert nation

Posted on 12 July 2016 - 12:53 AM

I was pissed about the Elo system being gone, but I have to say, I am extremely impressed with what you guys have done instead. gg

Posted on 12 July 2016 - 01:01 AM

This is an extremely good change, I am looking forward to playing with it implemented.

Posted on 12 July 2016 - 01:04 AM

am i the only one who entered like 6 bl donator giveaways just to get on the s13 beta

Last edited on 12 July 2016 - 01:06 AM by Monasuko

Monasuko is my main. I wasn't talking to you anyway. I was telling the owners how I feel about the changes in the hope that Elo would be added back. Like I said without Elo there no reason for me to play on Badlion, or donate anything more. But if you feel the need to attack me for no reason, then maybe you should count to ten and cool down.

And why are you dissing my skin? I like it so why change it? You sound just like my brothers.

Posted on 12 July 2016 - 01:06 AM

One question, For example there are two people with both of them being Diamond I.
The leaderboard is looking like this -> Rank 4: Guy1 - Diamond I, Rank 5: Guy2 - Diamond I.
How will the Guy2 know how much more wins/points he will have to get to overpass Guy1?
Does the Guy2 just have to keep winning matches and when he noticed he just over passed Guy1?
Or will there be some kind of number/symbol or whatever that shows how much more Guy2 will have to do to overpass Guy1?
Thanks

Posted on 12 July 2016 - 01:08 AM

Then why'd you quote my post.. And Archy repeated multiple times that he wasn't going to change it. It's getting annoying how people are complaining every single minute about something they have NO choice over. The system that Archy implemented is going to be here for a long time, and you're just gonna have to get used to it. Sorry for being a dick.

Posted on 12 July 2016 - 01:08 AM

I played Starcraft 2 a lot in the past, they used this system, and I can say that I was far more relaxed, willing to play, not so worried about elo THEN than I am now with this game and its current system. I hate to admit to being easily psychologically manipulated I guess, but it does help to have wider, vaguer boundaries, not worrying about your precise standing so much. You'll enjoy the game more and learn faster, too.