I am Danteh

I think the random kits were a really good addition b/c it forced the teams to make risks with their rosters. If PFW Emerald knew it was going to be archer last round then they would've put KidiZoom but they didn't want to risk him getting put into NoDebuff so it forced them to play smart with a more globally-rounded team.

I also feel that it was not that clear that the finals were going to be bo5's so teams were kinda scurred. Also i have the mention that the redo was the dumbest thing ever b/c PFW was literally only complaining that they are getting closer to a loss so they blamed lag even thought Karlixon's team could've easily blamed the first pot match on lag b/c that match was clearly equal if not greater in lag. Either way, one of the best tournaments Badlion has hosted in a while with an intense af Finals.

I told you this in voice but I think it's worth other people's' time to think about it:

As an overarching statement, I'm just going to put it out there that RNG always lowers skillcaps. It's pretty straightforward; If you are not given the opportunity to make decisions you will invariably (haha) not get rewarded for making the correct or the incorrect plays - Compare something like Chess (0% variance, every decision is made by the player) to Hearthstone (45% variance, slightly less than half the outcomes, excluding a players' ability to play around RNG, are decided by RNG) to Poker (55% variance, mostly RNG).

So with that in mind, I think it that it was definitely not in the best interest of Badlion competitively to predetermine / have staff determine randomly on the spot the gamemodes' play order; teams should be vetoing the orders of the gamemodes.

Regardless, I don't think there's any reason to *not* have gamemode vetoes. It takes slightly more time, sure, but it's a quite straightforward process. Picking what gamemode to play first or second isn't exactly a difficult thing for new players, if anything logging into Badlion client was the most confusing thing about the tournament.

The biggest impact random gamemode order had was on the teams' rosters - They couldnt play the players that would perform best in a situation because they didn't know what the situation would be. It made the tournament less competitive and didn't use the concept of a 7-player team to its fullest potential.

1. It seems like in badlion staffs' eyes, the 2 subs are just extra players to play when something goes wrong with one of the 'main' players, but realistically that's not the function smart teams will use those slots for.
If I have a team of 5 players that's pretty well rounded and can guarantee being able to attend a 1 day, 5-6 hour tournament, I'm not going to spend my other two slots on other well rounded players. I'm going to get players who are specifically good at certain gamemodes who will increase my chances. Instead of the guys who are about 80/100 in both Archer and NoDebuff, I'm going to get the guy who are 95/100 in Archer and 20/100 in NoDebuff and vice versa.
It's the equivalent of getting melee heavy players for certain CTF/CTW maps and bow heavy players for others.
You want players who are better in niche situations because they will give you a certain edge if you play your cards right - Veto the right map, set up the right gamemode, etc.

Being able to plan for and execute all of that requires forethought, gamemode knowledge, map knowledge (in the case of CTF and CTW), and coordination on top of just pvp ability, there is a far higher skillcap. But because the gamemodes are randomized teams cannot do any of that, and like the guy said in the very first reply to this thread, can't risk playing more skilled players in certain gamemodes because of the *unknown* risk of running into unfavourable situations.

I think the fact that Ny's seeding based on MMR ratings was basically perfect is not a good thing. It shows that 5v5 doesn't require more anything than 1v1s, and that undermines the whole concept of playing the gamemode with more than 1 player. I actually don't understand why there's even support or time invested into something that is equally linear if just not more time consuming on a competitive level.

Tl;dr:

Random gamemode picking is far less competitive than allowing for teams to veto
5v5 Arena hasnt evolved at all and is a waste of time

As the leader of keronii's team, apologies to all players that could have been impacted by his "hacks" during the tournament or before. Since we didn't even play on the Badlion Client because it wasn't working properly, I'm wondering what exactly are the "logs" saying and when it happened.

By the way, playing a Bo5 final randomly when there are only 3 kits was the less-competitive thing in the tournament history. The last match was completely luck-based, and out of 5 matches PFW Emerald only played NoDebuff, which was their best gamemode, once.

Congratulations to the winners and nice job for the seeding!

First of all, I found the announcement post really unclear on a lot of things that turned out being important features.
For example, the fact that teams weren't informed of the kits before the matches was something we really didn't expect as it was a brand new system in tournaments, so better explaining it would have been a good thing since it hugely impacts the rosters, because rounded players were highly required to play it in the best way.

Concerning the random order in itself, I don't find it proper for a tournament, it's too much luck based, especially if we can't adapt the rosters. I think a good way to improve this would be to implement a "veto system", just like in lechampionkev's tournaments. The concept is simple, at the beginning of the round, each team chooses a kit they don't want to play, and the kit that hasn't been picked will be the one in the first match. Then, the losing team decides the second kit to be played, and if there is a draw, the last kit will be the third one.
With this system, a team can't lose without playing their favorite kit and a team can't win only thanks to their best kit.

Regarding the amount of matches per round, a bo3 for each kit is required to make it fair and skill based, especially in a 5v5 tournament where mistakes are easily made. Regarding the finale (and semi-finales imo), instead of implementing a random factor that leads to a kit being less played, simply playing a bo5 in each kit could be sufficient.

Finally I was pleasantly surprised to see that you finally adopted a seeding system. Without a well-balanced challonge, the tournament can quickly turn out really unfair because the best teams might me in the same quarter, leading average teams to places they probably wouldn't have gotten if they had faced at least one good team, just like in the archer tournament.

The randomness was a great idea and it forced teams to have a more balanced team rather than just gods of that one particular kit, it made it a gamble and much more entertaining / exiting in my opinion. In the last fight of the finals it could have been either NoDebuff or Archer, Kidizoom was risky to play as it could have been NoDebuff however he is essential in Archer. This ended up with the teams consisting of more well rounded players as putting in anyone who specialised in one kit would have been extremely risky.

Will all the teams that were no shows be DQ'd from future Tourneys like SuchSpeed, xNestorio, Rex, and jd even though they are famous??

Compared to the rest of the tournaments badlion in my opinion this was the one that was ran the smoothest.
Random kits did add a very interesting factor into the tournament however it also added a lot of RNG to it which is not good for a competitive tournament. The results would have been a lot different if it the kits were not random, especially in the finals. A team should not win because they luckily put in the right rosters. With 7 people it just turns into a guessing game. The final round PFW was decently confident with their bow roster and didn't want to risk kidizoom in no debuff. If it was no debuff we probably would have lost, if they put in kidizoom we could have lost. Guessing shouldn't be this important. Veto system would be a lot better
I was watching Huahwi's stream during the tournament, it just seemed very forced and as if he didn't want to be there. In my opinion it would be a better choice if it was someone with a smaller youtube channel and was familiar with the community. Jdegoederen would have been a great choice (all of this assuming you guys asked huahwi to promote it)
Avalanche not showing was unfortunate it would have been great promotion.
I don't want to sound rude but BLC was a bit of a failure but nothing unfixable. Normally tournament was supposed to be a week earlier and you guys postponed it to finalize the client. You guys should have announced it a lot earlier if you thought it wasn't going to be perfect and not right before it after everyone practiced on it. I congratulate BLC for catching keronii, he has been cheating for a really long time and hasn't been banned. Kind of sad how he was able to get top 2 without getting caught tho.
The restarts were very unnecessary. The lag wasn't a game changer and it lagged every single round even in the redo. If we lost the redo I would have been very mad.
Very nice seeding nothing to say
Overall great tournament hope to participate in other ones, congratz to PFW Emerald for coming second.

Hey Kidi, it's funny I've heard your name a lot in these discussions these last couple of days since you're sorta the ultimate example of a specialized player.

In the future we will make an effort to be clearer about tournament format. I'm sorry that we were unclear about that this time around.

Do you think a team of the best specialized players deserves to win over a team of well-rounded players? Wouldn't you rather have an all around good player on your team than one who is near the top of a couple ladders and kinda meh at the rest? Throughout Badlion, global skill has always been pushed as the sign of a good player. Shouldn't tournies reflect this?

I have to say, that is not a bad idea for a veto system. I will bring it up the the tournament team and see what they think. One problem we've had is that tournament day is incredibly chaotic, and even when we've tried to use vetoes (CTW tourney), we've had trouble keeping our methods consistent. Good idea though, I think it could work well in CTF…

Happy to hear you liked the seeding, I was excited when they let me do it! ;)

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2 - The system isn't a global player rewarding system, you have 5 players and 2 subs. Most of the teams took advantage of that and replaced the subs with specialists. There is no point of having 7 equally well rounded players. It becomes who can predict the specialists kits. If it was a global team rewarding kind of system thee would have to be only 2 subbing allowed one for each sub incase someone had to go. The reason we won wasn't because we were the most well rounded, it was because we predicted archer and had our best bow line up.

Again, I'm on the fence about this one so I'm interested in hearing more perspectives. I'll give you my reasons for specialization:
In a lot of major eSports, you see specialized players be valued. Like in Overwatch or League, where people main certain characters. Why should Badlion be different? As the skillcap for individual ladders climbs higher and higher (look at top players now vs 4 years ago), wouldn't it make more sense for people to focus on just a couple specific skills? Doesn't the challenge of creating different rosters according to gamemode make things more exciting, because individual games will feature the best of the best players at that one gamemode?

It's tough, because arena PvP is such a foundation of Badlion that it's hard to say we should put our efforts entirely into objective gamemodes. Different people have different opinions on this, and hopefully over time we'll find a direction that is both competitive and entertaining.

As the leader of keronii's team, apologies to all players that could have been impacted by his "hacks" during the tournament or before. Since we didn't even play on the Badlion Client because it wasn't working properly, I'm wondering what exactly are the "logs" saying and when it happened.

Oh please, your whole clan is a bunch of minecraft closet cheaters and keroni in particular has been cheating his cock off in ranked for at least half a year, i'm not surprised at all that he got banned for upping his settings for prize money.