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Badlion 2.0 - CTF 2.0
Last edited on 23 August 2017 - 12:48 PM by Archybot
We might change the cap limit based on community feedback, but the cap limit shouldn't affect practicing/scrimmages while we decide.And please do talk about boosting some more, because when I initially added boosting I thought I was increasing the skill ceiling, but over time I just see boosting destroying even the best of defenses and making it pure chaos/offense only, which in turn lowered the skill ceiling as there is no counter play.
Posted on 23 August 2017 - 01:01 PM
Recoovery wrote
to be clear, now for ctf tournament, there is a limit of 5 flags captured and boosting is not a thing anymore?
Yes to both
Posted on 23 August 2017 - 01:14 PM
Cratain wrote
Boosting
Boosting is an interesting one. Essentially, to me, there are two different cases: either there are sections in the map where boosting is planned and integrated, or there is not.
If boosting is a planned feature, it is almost like team parkour. We can make points that can only be crossed if you swing a second player around to some spot to boost someone. This is honestly a rather interesting concept for map making, and definitely one we may explore on the build team, but for now, it is not a feature that is in the CTF maps we have made.
If boosting is not a planned feature, it is honestly more of an annoyance for the map makers. Think of it this way: we make maps so that you are not just fighting on a flat, open plane. We put obstacles in your way, add chokepoints, give you things you need to care about. We want you to move around the map and coordinate your movement around the map well.
In all honesty, many of the boosting plans I have seen players come up to me with for these 5 maps are kind of ridiculous. For sure, you can boost across some crazy gap on a scrim server by yourself, but if in setting up that stunt you have had to jump in front of someone for ten seconds waiting to line it up away from cover, you would be shot down in an instant in a real match.
That said, occasionally you can boost, and often, it is in ways we very much do not want you to. If there is a 2 high point on any of these maps currently, it is because we want to allow you to move through one way but not the other. If we make a 1 way part of a map, it is almost always because we feel that being able to move backwards through it would make things way to easy. Perhaps we could revist the topic of boosting with different maps that use it as a feature, but in ones such as these that do not, we are only really allowing potential game breaks by leaving it.
I want to really highlight the point here about how boosting isn't very dynamic when built into maps by design. When there's a specific gap that's meant to be boosted across, it usually becomes a question of how rather than when. We saw this happen a lot in the CTW tournament, once certain spots for boosting were discovered they became strictly better options. There are of course small-scale uses for boosting, but we found it very hard to find a use for boosting that wasn't strictly better or worse than other options. Finding a situation that isn't either throwing a player into a safe, highly defensible zone, or launching them to their death with a 1v2 was not something we were able to do on any of the new maps. I'd argue the most healthy form of boosting was using it to catch up to players, and that's been made possible in these maps anyways through careful pathing providing opportunities to cut off flag carriers.
More importantly, regardless of how much boosting would add in a theoretical sense, these maps simply aren't made for it. Something we really focused on with these maps was giving players the tools to effectively hold ground and find ways to force opponents off of advantageous positions. Boosting in general makes it much harder to stop an enemy from getting somewhere, which detracts from the rotation-heavy/positioning-based play we're trying to introduce. It also allows you to get places you strictly shouldn't be on these maps as Cratain mentioned, though that would be mostly just an annoyance to prevent.
Posted on 23 August 2017 - 01:42 PM
I really do not like that a game ends after just 5 flags, sorry but to capture 5 flags isn't hardPosted on 23 August 2017 - 01:51 PM
I'm seeing if I can get together the various map makers who worked on the map pool today around 4:30 pm EST (I'll let you know here if another time ends up working better) to discuss in discord any issues you guys are bringing up. I've heard a lot of good points, and want to make sure we get a good discussion in. If you can be there, please do so.Last edited on 23 August 2017 - 02:01 PM by Kiivo
Archybot wrote
We might change the cap limit based on community feedback, but the cap limit shouldn't affect practicing/scrimmages while we decide.
And please do talk about boosting some more, because when I initially added boosting I thought I was increasing the skill ceiling, but over time I just see boosting destroying even the best of defenses and making it pure chaos/offense only, which in turn lowered the skill ceiling as there is no counter play.
And please do talk about boosting some more, because when I initially added boosting I thought I was increasing the skill ceiling, but over time I just see boosting destroying even the best of defenses and making it pure chaos/offense only, which in turn lowered the skill ceiling as there is no counter play.
From playing scrims against 3 different teams for the past 5 hours, I would say the average match length for us was about 4 - 6 minutes
These were scrims in which we won the majority yet I still think some teams could have adjusted and possibly have came back
Furthermore the closer games were pretty low scoring and boring due to the game ending in 12mins
As I have mentioned I believe the game should end if a team has a 5 cap lead and not such a low limit
The problem with determining a limit for all maps is that some maps are pretty low scoring eg. Versatile whilst others are highly based on trading flags and often finish 11 : 9 eg. Aerospace
Therefore the idea of winning the entire game when you have a significant lead is greater concept, as rather than focusing on getting to a particular No. caps, you must do so whilst also making sure you defend the other teams pushes
Along with this again the games max time should still be 15mins, as it is the perfect mix between too little time and enough time to come back
If a team is destroying then they will get 5 more flags and finish the game, however if not then those 15mins will be far more enjoyable both as a player and a spectator
As for boosting, I understand that maps aren't built around it but I agree with you that it does increase the skill cap yet in CTF isn't game breaking at all, at least not on any of these maps. In CTW I understand why it should be removed but for a fast paced team orientated game such as CTF, I think boosting is very useful and a great addition. Furthermore boosting isn't just useful offensively, but defensively too, and again doesn't break the gamemode at all
Posted on 23 August 2017 - 02:07 PM
I don't think you need to change the maps to implement boosting, just add it back. It wasn't too overpowered anywhere and once again, no1 complained. I can get the idea of having a cap limit, but higher it to like 7 or 8 or 10Posted on 23 August 2017 - 02:14 PM
My team used boosting to get in the wool on the last ctw tourney, it doesnt require skill just stop boosting is badPosted on 23 August 2017 - 02:19 PM
xHeimskr wrote
My team used boosting to get in the wool on the last ctw tourney, it doesnt require skill just stop boosting is bad
yes, CTW it is unfair but it doesn't affect CTF in a negative way whatsoever. It's a fast phase game and being able to boost your teamates chasing the guy with a flag or get to a chokepoint faster requires coordination and skill. But in CTW where it's slow phase and you get a skybridge going then yeah, it shouldn't be in the game but this isn't ctw.
Posted on 23 August 2017 - 02:24 PM
Recoovery wrote
to be clear, now for ctf tournament, there is a limit of 5 flags captured and boosting is not a thing anymore?
Yes
Posted on 23 August 2017 - 02:29 PM
I like the 2 teams for public the rest is just unneededPosted on 23 August 2017 - 02:40 PM
Archybot wrote
We might change the cap limit based on community feedback, but the cap limit shouldn't affect practicing/scrimmages while we decide.
And please do talk about boosting some more, because when I initially added boosting I thought I was increasing the skill ceiling, but over time I just see boosting destroying even the best of defenses and making it pure chaos/offense only, which in turn lowered the skill ceiling as there is no counter play.
And please do talk about boosting some more, because when I initially added boosting I thought I was increasing the skill ceiling, but over time I just see boosting destroying even the best of defenses and making it pure chaos/offense only, which in turn lowered the skill ceiling as there is no counter play.
Scrims can end up taking like 4 minutes with a 5 cap limit which takes the fun out of it.
Posted on 23 August 2017 - 02:46 PM
xHeimskr wrote
My team used boosting to get in the wool on the last ctw tourney, it doesnt require skill just stop boosting is bad
(IMO) Boosting in CTF is much different to boosting in CTW and in CTF it is much harder to strafe melee and bow shots coming in especially as you cant do things like blocking up like in CTW. I've always seen boosting as a good way to be more efficient and help get to flags faster and easier in close situations. On CTW if I'm getting bowed constantly or wall up in CTF usually if I'm getting bowed constantly with a teammate around my teammate will boost me through to make getting the kill easier unlike now where any defender can sit on a spot and land constantly land shots. Which I find a lot more boring.
Posted on 23 August 2017 - 02:47 PM
xHeimskr wrote
My team used boosting to get in the wool on the last ctw tourney, it doesnt require skill just stop boosting is bad
Posted on 23 August 2017 - 02:54 PM
Also good changes on the public side but I think that the cap limit should be increased and there should be a stats reset for CTFPosted on 23 August 2017 - 03:34 PM
Archybot wrote
We might change the cap limit based on community feedback, but the cap limit shouldn't affect practicing/scrimmages while we decide.
And please do talk about boosting some more, because when I initially added boosting I thought I was increasing the skill ceiling, but over time I just see boosting destroying even the best of defenses and making it pure chaos/offense only, which in turn lowered the skill ceiling as there is no counter play.
And please do talk about boosting some more, because when I initially added boosting I thought I was increasing the skill ceiling, but over time I just see boosting destroying even the best of defenses and making it pure chaos/offense only, which in turn lowered the skill ceiling as there is no counter play.
Respecting the captured flags limit, I agree there has to be a maximum amount, but it being 5 flags seems wrong to me, since there can be still a lot of time and the match be tied at 4,-4, and whoever gets the 5th flag would win with a lot of time left. This would be unfair to the other team, and I believe a better system would be to end matches when a flag difference of 5 or 7, just like if a match ended 10-3 or 11-4, with a few minutes left it would be pretty clear who would have won. And it would avoid the ending of a very even match in an unfair way, and it also would save time in cases where the difference is very clear.
Respecting the boost, I would rather have a tournament without this feature, however I would not change it 2 weeks prior to the tournament, since it would destroy a lot of strats and time spent in practice. It does not only help in attack, since it is helpful to go back to a defensive position, for example to reach your flag before the enemy, and that's not using it in offense. Anyway, I don't see a problem in it being helpful for offense. Most competitive team games the defending side has a lot of advantages respecting to the offending one, since the prior is in their base, near spawn and they only have to hold their position instead of attacking. Boosting helps to break stalemate and to make the game more dynamic.
Posted on 23 August 2017 - 05:50 PM
Ads_ wrote
xHeimskr wrote...
It doesnt require skill just stop saying boosting requires skill
Posted on 23 August 2017 - 07:58 PM
I just hope SG gets a similar quality of life updatePosted on 23 August 2017 - 09:10 PM
What would make this update better: Add the 4v4v4v4 mode back but keep the doubles one.
Posted on 23 August 2017 - 10:14 PM
From the few scrims I played today against YAGA this update makes it a lot more intense. The scores by the end of each game were not more than 1 or 2 apart and only one game actually finished before the time limit finished which was down to me calling a really risky shitty push. Having boosting removed is fine since it was kinda bs a lot of the time, however Basilica as a map now that u can't boost to the higher Gapple spawner has become incredibly hard to take back and get a comeback since holding that gap spawner gives u really good angles everywhere across the map and gapples. The time limit being shortened also means teams have to decide and shitty solo and team plays can cost you the game which they should. As the actual games go since all teams are now playing slightly more defensively and being wary of flag trades, the gameplay is much more coordinated and intense with structured team fights and map spread of players which often got fucked up over the 15 minutes. However although intense for the players, the spectators may find the lack of chaos 24/7 quite drab, on the other hand the solo and team plays that win games are incredibly exciting to watch like wiping their whole team or a player taking a 2v1 with the flag etc.