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Higher CPS Decreases Knockback + Increases Hit Registry
Posted on 26 September 2017 - 05:43 AM
Let me give you a very simple example why i think 1.7 or 1.8 is better for pvp than 1.9 and above.Lets say i play a match of SG or UHC in 1.9 and i get a nice first hit on him because his aim messed up. Now i cant combo him because there is a cooldown. What will he do? He knows he is at a disadvantage, will turn around and run away untill he is at full health again. In 1.7 you at least get a few hits on someone if you get a nice first hit because you can actually combo people.
1.7s skillcap consists of cps, aim and movement. Its not hard to click fast , everyone can break his mouse while jitterclicking or whatever clickstyle he does. The harder part is still being in able to properly aim and strafe while doing it. In 1.9, you just have to click once, imagine how easy it is to aim at someone if you have to only click once.
Also you mention movement is still a part of pvp, but this is only partially true imo. Movement is not only strafing, but also things like wtapping or stapping that make quite a good proportion of "skill" in 1.7. In 1.9, that wont be necessary because if you wtap, your opponent has all time of the world to just back up for a short moment and get out of the "combo". As mentioned above, the enitre "skill" of timing your movement and blockhits and rods an whatever in fast paced game is gone. Its like playing a FPS game on slowmotion. Everyone can aim in CS:GO if it is 0.25x speed.
Posted on 26 September 2017 - 06:48 PM
Radioactivebeans wrote
Timing is also essential in 1.7 but not as slow paced as it is in 1.9. Aiming is significantly less important and so is movement.
If you actually played the game for pvp you would see why it is horrible and none of the top players will ever switch to 1.9
If you actually played the game for pvp you would see why it is horrible and none of the top players will ever switch to 1.9
1.9+ isn't as slow-paced as you imagine it to be, at least once you're good at it.
I do actually play the game for pvp, and I've clearly played much more 1.9+ pvp than you ever have, so I don't know where you get the idea that you can tell me that the system that I think is better is objectively horrible. And there are very good players on 1.12.
Stanenberg wrote
Let me give you a very simple example why i think 1.7 or 1.8 is better for pvp than 1.9 and above.
Lets say i play a match of SG or UHC in 1.9 and i get a nice first hit on him because his aim messed up. Now i cant combo him because there is a cooldown. What will he do? He knows he is at a disadvantage, will turn around and run away untill he is at full health again. In 1.7 you at least get a few hits on someone if you get a nice first hit because you can actually combo people.
1.7s skillcap consists of cps, aim and movement. Its not hard to click fast , everyone can break his mouse while jitterclicking or whatever clickstyle he does. The harder part is still being in able to properly aim and strafe while doing it. In 1.9, you just have to click once, imagine how easy it is to aim at someone if you have to only click once.
Also you mention movement is still a part of pvp, but this is only partially true imo. Movement is not only strafing, but also things like wtapping or stapping that make quite a good proportion of "skill" in 1.7. In 1.9, that wont be necessary because if you wtap, your opponent has all time of the world to just back up for a short moment and get out of the "combo". As mentioned above, the enitre "skill" of timing your movement and blockhits and rods an whatever in fast paced game is gone. Its like playing a FPS game on slowmotion. Everyone can aim in CS:GO if it is 0.25x speed.
Lets say i play a match of SG or UHC in 1.9 and i get a nice first hit on him because his aim messed up. Now i cant combo him because there is a cooldown. What will he do? He knows he is at a disadvantage, will turn around and run away untill he is at full health again. In 1.7 you at least get a few hits on someone if you get a nice first hit because you can actually combo people.
1.7s skillcap consists of cps, aim and movement. Its not hard to click fast , everyone can break his mouse while jitterclicking or whatever clickstyle he does. The harder part is still being in able to properly aim and strafe while doing it. In 1.9, you just have to click once, imagine how easy it is to aim at someone if you have to only click once.
Also you mention movement is still a part of pvp, but this is only partially true imo. Movement is not only strafing, but also things like wtapping or stapping that make quite a good proportion of "skill" in 1.7. In 1.9, that wont be necessary because if you wtap, your opponent has all time of the world to just back up for a short moment and get out of the "combo". As mentioned above, the enitre "skill" of timing your movement and blockhits and rods an whatever in fast paced game is gone. Its like playing a FPS game on slowmotion. Everyone can aim in CS:GO if it is 0.25x speed.
See, all of you are "imagining" how easy 1.9+ is because of its slower click speed. You make false analogies and hypothetical situations that don't work out in any way near the way you think they do. I don't have to "imagine how easy it is to aim" in 1.9+ because I actually play it, and it isn't easy.
The cooldown does not remove your capacity to combo a player; in 1.7 there is already a .5s minimum time between hits due to damage immunity – the cooldown for swords in 1.9 is only 2 ticks longer than that. Sure, the guy will turn and run away, but if you have good aim and timing, you'll get a few hits on him just as you would in 1.7 – it's just that if you miss in 1.9 you've lost your chance, whereas you can just make up for your miss in 1.7 by clicking fast.
W-/S-tap works in 1.9+, and no they can't back out of it any faster than they can in 1.7.
1.12 pvp isn't slow unless you suck at it.
Posted on 27 September 2017 - 12:59 AM
logicalpencils wrote
Radioactivebeans wrote...
1.9+ isn't as slow-paced as you imagine it to be, at least once you're good at it.
I do actually play the game for pvp, and I've clearly played much more 1.9+ pvp than you ever have, so I don't know where you get the idea that you can tell me that the system that I think is better is objectively horrible. And there are very good players on 1.12.
Stanenberg wrote...
See, all of you are "imagining" how easy 1.9+ is because of its slower click speed. You make false analogies and hypothetical situations that don't work out in any way near the way you think they do. I don't have to "imagine how easy it is to aim" in 1.9+ because I actually play it, and it isn't easy.
The cooldown does not remove your capacity to combo a player; in 1.7 there is already a .5s minimum time between hits due to damage immunity – the cooldown for swords in 1.9 is only 2 ticks longer than that. Sure, the guy will turn and run away, but if you have good aim and timing, you'll get a few hits on him just as you would in 1.7 – it's just that if you miss in 1.9 you've lost your chance, whereas you can just make up for your miss in 1.7 by clicking fast.
W-/S-tap works in 1.9+, and no they can't back out of it any faster than they can in 1.7.
1.12 pvp isn't slow unless you suck at it.
You have to understand that cps isn't as important as you think it is in 1.7
Last edited on 27 September 2017 - 06:01 AM by Stanenberg
I did play quite a bit on a 1.8 server that had a kit with the 1.9 hit cooldown and it was exactly how i described it…hmmBtw, you cant make up aim mistakes in 1.7 by clicking fast. Why would that be the case?
Maybe its hard for you to aim in 1.9, i definitely thought it was way easier in 1.7 because you dont have to focus on so many things
Posted on 27 September 2017 - 05:30 PM
Radioactivebeans wrote
You have to understand that cps isn't as important as you think it is in 1.7
I never said that cps is super-important in 1.7, which is part of my point; the lower cps in 1.9+ isn't super-important, either.
Stanenberg wrote
I did play quite a bit on a 1.8 server that had a kit with the 1.9 hit cooldown and it was exactly how i described it…
1.8 has buggy hitreg, first of all; secondly, how actually do you replicate the 1.9 cooldown in 1.8, and even if they did do so I highly doubt they did it properly; thirdly, 1.8 has larger kb than 1.9+ which makes it harder to extend combos; finally, I'd need to see what actually happened, because your description leaves lots of variables unanswered, such as initial distance from the enemy. Suffice it to say, I've gotten combos and been combo'ed many times in 1.12.
By "make up for bad aim", I mean that there is no consequence for missing a single swing in 1.7 because you can just immediately attack again after re-centering your aim.
Posted on 27 September 2017 - 08:23 PM
I dont know anything about server coding and stuff, so i dont know how they did it, but i have played both 1.9 and that "simulated" 1.9 and it was pretty much the same.If you mess up your aim in 1.7 and your opponent is good, he will combo you. If he is bad, you re-center your aim and your fine. In 1.9 it doesnt matter how good or bad your opponent is, because you simply cant hit him. For me its clear which combat system is fairer and rewards skill more.
Btw, allow me a small question. What do you exactly dislike about the 1.7? I dont see any reason to switch away from it.
Posted on 27 September 2017 - 09:24 PM
Stanenberg wrote
I dont know anything about server coding and stuff, so i dont know how they did it, but i have played both 1.9 and that "simulated" 1.9 and it was pretty much the same.
If you mess up your aim in 1.7 and your opponent is good, he will combo you. If he is bad, you re-center your aim and your fine. In 1.9 it doesnt matter how good or bad your opponent is, because you simply cant hit him. For me its clear which combat system is fairer and rewards skill more.
Btw, allow me a small question. What do you exactly dislike about the 1.7? I dont see any reason to switch away from it.
If you mess up your aim in 1.7 and your opponent is good, he will combo you. If he is bad, you re-center your aim and your fine. In 1.9 it doesnt matter how good or bad your opponent is, because you simply cant hit him. For me its clear which combat system is fairer and rewards skill more.
Btw, allow me a small question. What do you exactly dislike about the 1.7? I dont see any reason to switch away from it.
1.7 is a pvp style that revolves around the milliseconds; 1.9+ is a pvp style that revolves around the half-seconds. I prefer games with a fast pace, not a blitz, Koreans-playing-Starcraft pace. I'm also pretty annoyed and bored by constantly having to click to attack - even at 6 cps it gets frustrating for me.
KB is just kinda ridiculous on a lot of servers, but that might just be a server/lag issue.
1.9+ has way more tools to offer - NoDebuffLinger is currently my favorite mode (just replace health pots with linger health pots).
Basically, I enjoy games where each action I do feels meaningful, rather than an ethereal click-about that 1.7 often feels like.
Posted on 28 September 2017 - 12:53 AM
logicalpencils wrote
Radioactivebeans wrote...
I never said that cps is super-important in 1.7, which is part of my point; the lower cps in 1.9+ isn't super-important, either.
Stanenberg wrote...
1.8 has buggy hitreg, first of all; secondly, how actually do you replicate the 1.9 cooldown in 1.8, and even if they did do so I highly doubt they did it properly; thirdly, 1.8 has larger kb than 1.9+ which makes it harder to extend combos; finally, I'd need to see what actually happened, because your description leaves lots of variables unanswered, such as initial distance from the enemy. Suffice it to say, I've gotten combos and been combo'ed many times in 1.12.
By "make up for bad aim", I mean that there is no consequence for missing a single swing in 1.7 because you can just immediately attack again after re-centering your aim.
Kb values are set by the server
Posted on 28 September 2017 - 05:47 AM
I completely agree with you on the kb, but its a serverside thing.If you like the slower pacing more, thats just your opinion and perfectly fine, while many pvpers seem to prefer the blitz pacing. But wont you agree that a faster game requires quicker reactions and therefore has a higher skill cap and is more attractive to competitive players?
About the constant CPS, unless you play nodebuff, gapple or no-hitdelay, there is almost no situation in the game where you have to click longer than 4 or 5 seconds constantly because well…1.7 is fast paced.
I dont try to say 1.9 is "shit" because thats not what i think. But i certainly believe that 1.7 pvp requires the most "skill" and is therefore the best version currently available for the "competitive" community in mc pvp.
Posted on 28 September 2017 - 07:42 PM
Stanenberg wrote
I completely agree with you on the kb, but its a serverside thing.
If you like the slower pacing more, thats just your opinion and perfectly fine, while many pvpers seem to prefer the blitz pacing. But wont you agree that a faster game requires quicker reactions and therefore has a higher skill cap and is more attractive to competitive players?
About the constant CPS, unless you play nodebuff, gapple or no-hitdelay, there is almost no situation in the game where you have to click longer than 4 or 5 seconds constantly because well…1.7 is fast paced.
I dont try to say 1.9 is "shit" because thats not what i think. But i certainly believe that 1.7 pvp requires the most "skill" and is therefore the best version currently available for the "competitive" community in mc pvp.
If you like the slower pacing more, thats just your opinion and perfectly fine, while many pvpers seem to prefer the blitz pacing. But wont you agree that a faster game requires quicker reactions and therefore has a higher skill cap and is more attractive to competitive players?
About the constant CPS, unless you play nodebuff, gapple or no-hitdelay, there is almost no situation in the game where you have to click longer than 4 or 5 seconds constantly because well…1.7 is fast paced.
I dont try to say 1.9 is "shit" because thats not what i think. But i certainly believe that 1.7 pvp requires the most "skill" and is therefore the best version currently available for the "competitive" community in mc pvp.
Faster =/= More Competitive. Requiring more button presses increases the skill-cap on quick button-pressing, but it doesn't necessarily result in a higher skill cap in any other area. Otherwise "mash A" Mario Party minigames would literally be the most competitive games in the world. And yes, 1.7 isn't just about how fast you can click – but every other skill present in 1.7 is just as present in 1.12, including things that require blitz reaction like aiming and hotkeying. In some cases, such as aiming, the skill floor was raised in 1.9 due to the added punishment for missing; but the skill ceiling for aiming is still the same. My reference to 1.12 being slower was strictly concerning the attacking rate – nothing else.
My main issue with 1.7 is that the things that are faster are usually only nominally so; being able to click faster doesn't often result in a fight being played differently than it would be in 1.12 – certainly not in 1v1's. All that results is having to click more to get roughly the same effect as clicking in rhythm with the 1.9+ cooldown.
As for not needing to click for "too long" in non-OP scenarios, I still don't like having to swing my sword constantly, waggling it like its a pool noodle to kill someone.
I don't think 1.7 is a bad version for pvp (at least, the modified 1.7 that servers use); but I think that 1.12 successfully retains all skill caps that 1.7 had while adding new areas.
Posted on 28 September 2017 - 08:29 PM
I think i explained clearly enough why i think that the fast paced 1.7 requires more skill than the versions above it. I also do not believe that things like strafing, wtap timing and other things do work the same in the slower combat system. The way kb and combos work just completely changes. You say its stupid to wiggle your sword around? I think its at least as stupid to wait akwardly untill you can click again.You keep mentioning how it raises the skillcap if you cant hit someone if you miss your aim in 1.9, but in my post that you quoted, i explained why thats not the case.
You made some statements why 1.9 pvp mechanics require more skill and i explained why they are not true and now you just repeat what you said. I dont think this will lead anywhere.
Posted on 28 September 2017 - 09:39 PM
Stanenberg wrote
I think i explained clearly enough why i think that the fast paced 1.7 requires more skill than the versions above it. I also do not believe that things like strafing, wtap timing and other things do work the same in the slower combat system. The way kb and combos work just completely changes. You say its stupid to wiggle your sword around? I think its at least as stupid to wait akwardly untill you can click again.
You keep mentioning how it raises the skillcap if you cant hit someone if you miss your aim in 1.9, but in my post that you quoted, i explained why thats not the case.
You made some statements why 1.9 pvp mechanics require more skill and i explained why they are not true and now you just repeat what you said. I dont think this will lead anywhere.
You keep mentioning how it raises the skillcap if you cant hit someone if you miss your aim in 1.9, but in my post that you quoted, i explained why thats not the case.
You made some statements why 1.9 pvp mechanics require more skill and i explained why they are not true and now you just repeat what you said. I dont think this will lead anywhere.
Well you certainly can believe that strafing and w-tap doesn't work the same in 1.12, but you'd be wrong. Also, you just said that kb is server-side so how that plays out (and thus how combos work) is on a per-server basis; vanilla kb is changed, yes, but then, nobody uses 1.7 vanilla kb because it's broken; 1.9 and later 1.11 fixed that.
I mean… is a half-second delay between attacks really awkward? Like, that's less time than the endlag between attacks in most fighting games.
I said that it raises the skill floor, not necessarily the skill cap – that's probably about the same.
Literally the only things you've said against 1.9+ is that having to click all the time is better than having to click every half-second, and you've given one personal example of a pseudo-1.9 cooldown in a 1.8 game.
My objective here is nothing more than to get people to stop acting like 1.12 pvp is a terrible, slow-as-molasses piece of garbage and realize that it's still the same basic game as 1.7. If you think 1.12 is slow, you're garbage at it.
Posted on 01 October 2017 - 09:19 AM
OkPosted on 01 October 2017 - 10:28 AM
yeah so…left clicking is funPosted on 04 October 2017 - 06:34 AM
Minecraft science, wow.