Last edited on 06 June 2017 - 11:59 AM by logicalpencils

No this isn't a "1.9 is better lol 1.7 players suck" rant

It's been over a year since 1.9 came out. I'm aware that Badlion (and basically everyone else) does not support vanilla 1.9+ combat. Since I personally have enjoyed playing with both 1.7 and 1.9 combat systems, I wanted to come and ask what it is about 1.9's combat that is so abhorrent that it will not be supported.

From what I've read from the developers, they seem to like a few changes, but overall find the new system "cancerous". In particular, the issues seem to lie with:

1. Shields (and removal of block-hitting)
2. Rods
3. Attack cooldown

So, if you're going to respond with any of those three answers, I have a few questions that I'd like you to answer as well, to help me understand your argument:

1. Why do you prefer spammable blocking with swords/What flaws do you see with shields (1.11 shields since that's more current)?

2. Why are 1.7 rod mechanics so important - isn't it more frustrating than anything?

3. If a player can only be hit twice a second, why does the cooldown matter so much? The only difference between being able to click 7 times a second and being able to click 1.6 times a second is that missing a swing in 1.9 gives you a small punishment; it does not affect the time-to-kill someone whatsoever. On top of this, the armor nerf came around to help bridge any time-to-kill gap there might have been. So, in short, I know you all hate attack cooldowns, but why?

Last edited on 06 June 2017 - 01:48 PM by Tvjuli

I dont know the details but I´ve seen some footage of the new combat system being broken, specially with the kb, you can make a player fly +6 blocks in the air if the condicions are given,

1. + Shield are a bit too broken (im not sure but I believe they cancel out all damage recived, on the latest verion at least)
+ This might be silly but the shield blocks half of your view which can be annoying.
+ Also From what I´ve played the shield use to bother when you where trying to spam things with your other hand, For instance if you wanna place blocks very fast you´ll just end up blocking your shield, or when trying to eat sometimes you´ll block your shield and sometimes you will eat depending on the situation.
+ Overall using th sword feels better than the shield and its more comfortable, remember that the feeling in PvP is very important and one of the reasons 1.7 is preffered more than 1.8

2. +Whether the rod should be part of PvP or not is a disscusion, and there is people that like it and people that dont. I personally like it a lot mostly because its a bigg increase on the skill cap, you can get good combos with the rod and also you can break combos with it. Some kits/games w/o the rod would be a lot worse, but also some kits would be worse with a rod. Generally I like it a lot and its sad seeing it go on this new version.
+ Also with the new combat sysetm they made it so the rod will pull you back, just like it does already with mobs. Now I personally haven´t seen that used in an actual uhc or any other gamemode but, would´t it make it impposible for someone to run away? as they get pulled back with people with rods.

(either way, and correct me if im wrong, I belive neither rods or snowballs/eggs work in vannila minecraft on other players, I think they only work because of plugins on servers)

3. +First of all there are advantages on cliking fast, such as you deal more damage to other players if the sharpness and protection enchantments are involved, and some other stuff (Unwise made a longtweet about this but I cant seem to find it) Even though aim is mor important, there is a diference between 1.6 cps and 10.
+ The fact that they nerfed the armor made the bow-spamming ""issue"" a LOT worse because it deals a lot more damage now, you are supposed to counter the bow with the shield that cancels the damage, but it still a thing
+ The cooldown ruins the speed that pvp combat has, with the new system people just walk in circules on each other since player dont deal the kb they used to, its like fighting someone with extreme lag on 1.7, there are no more combos now its like trading hits and hoping not to miss, all the exitemnt and speed its gone.

I dont have as much exprience in this as you because I didnt play much but this is what I felt, I definetly gave it a try with PvP and Pv
E(such as ctm maps, survival, etc), please correct me if im wrong and give you opinion if you disagree, I would like to see what is the reason some people like this, since I cant see why.

Posted on 06 June 2017 - 01:55 PM

A reason why attack cool downs, and generally 1.9 PvP, is found as boring and "cancerous" by the community is the fact that it takes too long to play. Meaning, PvP is generally slower, and fights take way longer to complete. This ruins a lot of the fun from PvP in a lot of peoples' points of views because they are used to a somewhat fast play style of 1.7/1.8 PvP that 1.9 ruins. Also, 1.9 generally makes Minecraft less skill based, as you don't have to be consistent when it comes down to aiming, clicking, or just generally being more focused.

At the end of the day, it's very similar to why people complain about rod/bow/water/lava spammers in build. It slows down the game, and just generally makes it more irritating for the player. However, rod/bow/water/lava spamming require more skill than having the patience to wait for a click. Therefore, increasing the skill caps on the game modes they are present in. Whereas the attack cool down only decreases the skill cap (by making click speed and consistent aim a non-factor) as well as increasing the fight time significantly.

Even with an armor nerf, it still feel unnatural, and just generally goes against one's will, to wait patiently to click once ever X seconds to attack. Another aspect is that the 1.7/1.8 PvP community are mainly players who avoided the 1.9 switch as it happened, and are more used to 1.7/1.8 PvP. So, switching styles to a more boring, less skillful, and generally younger/less skillful playerbase wouldn't make much sense for the average 1.7/1.8 PvPer.

Now, I'll answer your questions;

1- Yet again, it is more fast pace this way. I understand shields are a thing, and you can hotkey to them, but it is generally more time consuming to sit and wait for someone to stop blocking (which blocks for more damage) compared to a more quick, less time consuming, and less overpowered/more balanced form of blocking.

2- I find 1.7 rod mechanics fine. I think most people can agree with me on that one.

3- It does effect the time to kill someone. If you both have a kit, say nodebuff, and are fighting, it will take significantly longer to kill someone in 1.9 than 1.7/1.8. This is because the attack cooldown is longer than the delay where you can hit someone, and it is impossible to combo someone in the normal 1.7/1.8 sense. The attack cooldown also favors a more defensive play style, which will drag pot matches extremely long because people will just be able to pot (with little to no quickdrops). A defensive play style that is favored also generally drags the match out longer, as seen with players in 1.7/1.8 that play defensively.

Yet again, it also removes an aspect of skill to the game. I know many may not think that CPS is skill, but it is something that can be practiced, improved upon, and varies from player to player (which is my definition of a skill). The cooldown completely removes worrying about this, which just lowers the skill cap, which in turn makes the game easier to master and less fun.

Feel free to state another point, I'd love to continue this great discussion :D

Last edited on 06 June 2017 - 02:12 PM by SoulzHD

Pretty much what Tvjuli and UVpickles said and the fact that its extremely boring and slow paced. With the hit cooldown , combos are almost nonexistent and there is just no satisfaction getting one like on 1.7/8.

Also since you are new , I noticed that you came here straight from minecraft reddit to ask for opinions.

The reason why the main pvp version is so outdated is because Mojang doesn't listen to the actual pvp community at all, but instead they listen to the guys that play survival or build all day and have no clue about pvp. Not to mention that we are not allowed to post any pvp content on their reddit because it will just get deleted for advertising.

A few months ago someone made a controversial topic on the minecraft reddit about 1.7 and 1.9 pvp and it eventually reached out to Jeb which tweeted out this : https://twitter.com/jeb_/status/806441500754268160
Now you can see for yourself how the pvp community reacted and how uninformed is Mojang about it…

Last edited on 06 June 2017 - 10:09 PM by logicalpencils

I'm grateful to all of you for your responses. I'm going to try to simplify and combine some answers you guys have given, to make some follow-up questions/insights.

To get it out of the way first, I've never seen or heard of the 6+ block vertical kb you've mentioned, Tvjuli, so in all likelyhood it was patched some time ago if it was ever a real thing.


Your points against 1.12 combat are as follows:

Shields are slow/obnoxious

If shields are getting in the way of block-placing, just take the shield out of the offhand :| I don't know why so many people have this fixation to always place a shield there and keep it there at all times… Also, they did decrease the view model for shields - it covers a little more of the screen than default sword-blocking does.

Shields are OP

I can see the point that fighting a guy who camps shield is a little annoying. I'd make two changes to shields in this regard:

Shields should only cover 90 degrees in the direction you face, instead of 180, to support strafe-hits through shields better; and

Shields have a "disabling durability" - starts at 6, when it reaches 0, shield disables. Axes do 4 disable damage, other weapons and bows do 2. Crits multiply disable damage by 150%, so crit axes are a one-hit disable, and sword/bow crits are a two-hit disable.

As for blocking just feeling more natural or faster, I can see that too, even though I prefer the stronger shield. What about Mojang adding a second shield that basically behaves like sword-blocking did (50% damage, instant)?

Rods
You can use it to catch someone who's running away, though its uses are much more limited than in 1.7. I guess it's just that if you use 1.7 mechanics, there really isn't anything else you can use against combos, whereas in 1.9+ the old rod isn't all that necessary since combos work differently and shields can disrupt them instead.

You deal more damage if you can spam during the damage immunity
Well, it is true that if you do another attack during damage immunity that does more damage than the first attack, it replaces the old damage dealt for the new one. And, since before 1.9 crits were pretty randomly achieved and Protection blocked a variable amount, this "extra damage" happens quite regularly. But it isn't all that big of a deal, and a given attack in 1.9+ does more damage anyways because of armor nerf.

Bowspam is worse
Well, armor is nerfed relative to the strength of the attack hitting it. So, if someone is "spamming" fully-charged shots, then yes they'll do about 1.62 more damage than usual (only .81 difference if against full diamond). But bowspam usually involves mid-charged shots and running away, in which case, assuming the mid-charged shot does ~6 base damage, the damage difference between 1.7 and 1.9+ is only .72 (or only .36 if against full diamond) - less than a half-heart per shot! So, although bowspam is a very annoying problem that I wish 1.9 had fixed, it certainly doesn't make it worse, considering shields again, and the new rods. And yes, I'm speaking from experience, not hypotheticals.

It's too different for old players
Good point… but not for this discussion. This isn't about replacing 1.7 pvp - it's about why the servers won't add 1.9 separately (and yet beg Mojang to support both lol)

It's unnatural to wait for a cooldown
No. The vast majority of fighting and shooter games have cooldowns or endlags after an attack is done - 1.7 Minecraft is actually quite unique in its spam-clicking style. So, maybe it's unnatural for you because you're used to 1.7, and in that case look at the statement above.

Cooldowns lower skill
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha no.
That's like saying 1.7 takes no skill because you just spam-to-win; it's a surface-level, ignorant assesstment of the combat system. It removes the "skill" of clicking fast, but even if it is a skill, I don't think it's one that should be rewarded. It does not remove the skill of focus, and it actually increases the emphasis on positioning, aiming, and strafing skills. If you have bad aim in 1.9, you'll be punished more than in 1.7 because of the cooldown. I don't think either version requires more skill than the other - it's a matter of which skills are emphasized. If you don't believe me, I can pm you a good 1.12 pvp server for you to play/git rekt on.

There's no combos
Now I'm not going to pretend to know the intricacies of the 1.7 combo game. And yes, kb changes significantly with almost every new version of the game. But there are 1.9+ combos. You are correct to say it doesn't happen "in the 1.7 way" - you aren't pushing away players at the edge of the attack radius to keep them from hitting you, though this can still happen in 1.9+ for a few hits. Most often combos in 1.9 involve strafing crits, moving back-and-forth at the edge of the attack radius, or jukes. I guess the best way I can describe it to you is to compare 1.7 and 1.9+ to Smash Bros. Melee and Smash 4. Combos that worked in Melee (like Ken Combo or Falco's shine-to-dair) don't work or are implausible in Smash 4. But that doesn't mean Smash 4 doesn't have combos. It just plays differently. If you don't believe me, well there's that server again.

And the big one,
It's slow
No. The pace is certainly not slower, and battle length is pretty variable, so that's hard to judge; but I can assure you at the very least it's nothing near the hyperboles people tend to use to describe it.

Lastly, I don't see how Jeb's tweet shows that Mojang is "uninformed"? What, you think that preferring 1.9+ is a mere state of ignorance?
Do you really expect Mojang to immediately remove everything they worked on for the past 2 years? I'd suggest that if you want Mojang to listen, you give suggestions on how to improve the system they're working with (such as my shield ideas).

Last edited on 06 June 2017 - 11:44 PM by KingBooger

Why do you ask questions you already know the answer to?

No one likes the new combat system except for survival players.

PvP in 1.7 takes so much more skill and practice.

[Edit] I don't want to come off as rude. 😁

Last edited on 07 June 2017 - 01:48 AM by Tvjuli

About the kb I was unable to find the video and since I didnt tested it myself so I dont have anything to support this. But I believe It had something to do with the knockback being based on "motion" So if you are sprinting you will deal more knockback, and etc. This worked in both y and x axis. When you jump you go up and down, so When you go "up" while jumping you deal more vertical kb and if the other player was also going "up" he will recive more vertical kb, that added to you being sprint jumping (more speed) could deal crazy amounts of kb. But thats what I saw, I was unable to find evidence so maybe it was just a version and got patched.

Shields are slow/obnoxious

About this, Isn´t it annoying to have to take the shield out of your off-hand everytime (I know you can use a hotkey) but I imagine a fight were I notice im low and want to run away, a lot of people run by placing blocks under their feet to slow down the opponent and you dont really have time to take it out, and thats just one of the many examples (or at least stuff like that happened to me when I played)
About that it covers less off the screen than the sword it might be true but you never really stop to cover you sword, you block hit in 1.7 and only block in rare cases.

Bowspam is worse

About this I kinda meant the act of spamming instead of the amount of damage it dealt, now I said this but maybe I just got unlucky, The only UHC I played I barely managed to melee someone bowing was the main fighting metod. And when eventualy my shield broke ooohh boy I was a free kill. But once againg I didnt played enough, and neither did the community, to see where was the new "meta" with this combat system is going.
Either way some people see bowing as something good, and are annoyied when you melee rush them, so its more about taste an experiences I feel.

It's too different for old players

But some servers updated to 1.9 and had to come back such as cubecraft. Even Badlion had a separate 1.9 version (that was modified so you could spam click, just not more than 7 cps I think, and also had some more stuff) but noone really played it.
And also some people have been playing 1.7 for years, they dont want to star playing from scratch all over again a game they were good at

Cooldowns lower skill

I think you are right about this, im sure it takes skill and there are good and bad players, but what he meant is that it takes less skill compared to 1.7 pvp.
Now I haven´t played enough time to discuss this, but I do believe that the 1.7 system has advanced a lot throughout the years when 1.9 is still new, so its gonna take some time for players to figure out the tips and tricks to it.

It´s slow

I guess that thi is a matter of taste, but I felt like it was choppy, people would just hit, block and repeat and overal it felt…. well slow in comparison to the fast paced fights we are used to.


About the tweet, what I believe bothered us the PvP (or well the 1.7 PvP) community was that Jeb looked at that post in reddit and took it as imput on how to improve the system, and looking at the reddit post(not the comments just the post) the player complains about always dying because the opponent "had a better mouse" and well mostly it just wasnt a good post, It felt that in the discussion noone really knew about the PvP mechanics. If they really wanted some feedback on the PvP asking us would have helped, or maybe just reading this Post you made where we are having a mature disscussion with smart arguments bothe defending 1.7 and 1.9 combat systems.
It felt like they didnt care at all what we thought (which they probs dont lol) and took feedback from non PvP players about PvP. Im sure half of those people dont know that the rod Is a key tool on pvp

Also one last subject I didnt mention on the other reply is that making such change in the game was clearly going to split the community in half, not just the pvp community but in general everyone, now no mayor server wants to move past 1.8 and it might just stay that way forever, maybe this is as far as it goes with the updates for us. Even if the change was onto a different combat system that everyone liked, the community was bound to split anyways.

Also this is a great post, not just a reage thread and Im surpriced noone has commented something dumb like "1.9 sucks you just like cuz you´re bad at 1.7) seeing someone giving arguments defending 1.9 its not very common here.

P.D: PM the server I feel like trying 1.11 again :P

Posted on 07 June 2017 - 08:21 AM

Well, Tvjuli, this one's a lot simpler to respond to. Now that we've gone back and forth on the topic, I'm seeing one common point in all of your most recent responses, so I'll address it again:

It's too different/I gave it a try and I just don't like it
This is the heart of the issue, really, and what divided the community. Because even if 1.9 were everything you wanted, it wouldn't be everything everyone wanted - some people just will always prefer 1.7 because they don't want to change how they play the game. But if the 1.7 community keeps treating 1.9+ like a taboo that can never be touched or associated with or supported on their servers, then the divide's never going to heal. I know 1.9 is new, the meta isn't entirely developed, and it's radically different from 1.7 and you might just not like it as much even after you get really good at it.

But if you don't play it, nothing will change.

If you don't play 1.9+, or at least offer other people to play it on the server, and just leave it as some unmentionable pariah, then the meta will never develop, the improvements will never be made, and suggestions will never be listened to.

Posted on 07 June 2017 - 09:45 AM

The thing is, Mojang does not care about the minecraft pvp community so even if we gave it a chance nothing would change. Mojang would continue to develop versions going on their own accord and ignoring servers like badlion because they choose to ignore rather than discuss. Mojang has shown they want to focus on the single player of the game more than focus on the pvp aspect.

The other thing, people avoid playing 1.9+ for a reason. We here are a pvp server and those versions take away from that. They make raw pvp and skill based matches something almost luck based and very annoying to play. The community is divided for a reason, different people enjoy doing different things on the game. Newer versions will continue to be seen as "taboo" because as competitive players, the people of Badlion want to ignore them and go for the best experience. In terms of pvp ability and overall feel, 1.7-1.8 are the optimal versions for this and will continue to be so. 1.9 will never be the pvp experience people want and they are not afraid to touch it, they choose not to because it provides a lesser experience compared to older versions.

Posted on 07 June 2017 - 09:53 AM

Your opinion on the style of combat that 1.9+ has is not the same as "1.9+ not being a good experience" or not being a good pvp environment. If you had actually read what we've been discussing, you might understand that there is actually quite a lot of skill that goes into both 1.7 and 1.9+. You might not enjoy 1.9's style, but that doesn't mean it's a luck-based trash system.

Again, Mojang will not go back to 1.7., so I suppose if "listening to the community" means reverting to a 3-year-old version, then of course Mojang won't listen to you. What you need to do is discuss what to do with the system at hand, not why it must be removed, because that's the one thing they will not do.

Last edited on 07 June 2017 - 10:29 AM by Tvjuli

No, we have this trauma about Mojang not lisening to us simply because they never really did. One big example is the HUGE hacker problem we have, were something like a radar to tell you where your opponents are or an autoclicker (as long as its randomized enough) its pretty much undetectable to any anti-cheat, we even reached a point where servers are developing their how minecraft clients such as the Badlion client, Cheatbreacker and even Hypixel its making their own game (which I know nothing about) to try and stop this. The 1.9 update is just a step the took further from this community.
I dont expect them to come back its far too late for that, and im sure this update is good to other stuff like survival and PvE in general. I personaly dont run the server and know nothing about coding, But im sure if you where to ask any Admin what mojang could do to help server they will give you a full list.
1.9 its like they are saying "we have moved on, you guys are on your own now". idk my Minecraft knowlege doesnt go much further, this is what I see or feel from this point of view, maybe someone else can explain it better why 1.9 is "taboo" and why half of the PvP community dosen´t even know 1.2 came out, or whats new there. I try to keep myself up to date but one again I mostly play 1.7/1.8

Last edited on 07 June 2017 - 10:47 AM by Jinxful

Not to mention the main "tick delay" bug which sets 1.7 as the superior version to 1.8 + updates

Essentially you're playing on a broken version for PvP

Posted on 07 June 2017 - 11:36 AM

I can sum it all up in these 3 words
1.9 PvP sucks

Posted on 07 June 2017 - 12:02 PM

very mature

Posted on 07 June 2017 - 12:12 PM

The issue with aim being delayed was fixed in 1.11.

Posted on 07 June 2017 - 01:35 PM

True dat. There are a lot of problems with minecraft concerning hackers, bugs, etc. But as with that 1.8 bug that 1.11 fixed, many things get improved over time. Instead of isolating the community from Mojang because they won't give us exactly what you want, try working with their system. Badlion's attempt to work with 1.9 when it came out was actually quite admirable, but taking it down was equally sad.

Last edited on 07 June 2017 - 01:53 PM by 843715

Tbh it can be better, but I like 1.9+ better than 1.7 since I'm sick of playing the same version for 4 years.

1: A shield's durability is too small. Also, if a person has decent aim, they can block every hit.

2: I don't really care about the rod, I came from the soup community and I play pot currently.

3: Do you really think clicking fast takes skill?

I know 1.11 is a controversial update, but think about it. As someone who's been playing minecraft for 5+ years, I've pretty much been around for most major updates. I remember when horses were first added and when people started blockhitting to make big combos (before then they spammed the blockhit to reduce damage). 1.7 has been the norm for pvp since late 2013, and no one has updated since. Playing the same version has been boring. The attack cooldown, however, ended kill aura triggerbot and autoclicker.

Posted on 07 June 2017 - 03:03 PM

Shield durability is too small…? It's over 300 :|

And yes, I do think there is more skill involved in 1.7 than clicking fast and I don't think clicking fast automatically makes you better. But it's annoying that it is a thing in the first place, I suppose.

Posted on 07 June 2017 - 03:06 PM

weird, last time I played the game shields had like 40 durability

Posted on 07 June 2017 - 03:08 PM

potfast and tylarzz don't jitter and they are gods, stimpy says he doesn't jitter but 10 cps normally is impossible lol