Last edited on 14 August 2017 - 11:29 AM by Kikzo

!This thread will get updated from time to time!

Before I start with this thread I really want you guys to know that this is MY opinion. You may disagree with it and you may express your own opinions as well, therefore I'd ask you to accept it and not just tell me that I'm wrong.

First of all, most of you guys probably know me under the name Kikzo; I've been playing Badlion ever since Season 3. Because I used to be an SG player, Badlion was never really my main server until this season and I mostly just played MCSG/SG ladder and never really tried to go for global elo, but occasionally played the other ladders as well. Season 12 was basically the first season where I kind of tried to go for global elo, at least I played every ladder except Horse and Vanilla, simply because they were all fun to me. In Season 14 I really started to play a lot for global MMR and I quickly started to become really good at bow ladders and relatively decent at pot ladders as well. I ended up being Diamond 5 global in Season 14, my lowest kit was NoDebuff with Emerald 4 250 I believe. So yes, I know what I'm talking about.

1. The Bow Ladders

1.1 - Archer: This one is going to be very controversial, and I do believe a lot of the top tier players are going to disagree with me. My highest Archer MMR was around Masters 1700, so I am a decent Archer player, however I know there are a lot of people who are better than me. I personally like the S15 Archer ladder. I love the idea of the ravines which seperate the two sides from each other, which prevents rushing. Also no enderpearls, which is great, because that was the main problem that the best Archer players stressed: rushers. What I don't like however, is the speed change from Speed 1 from Speed 2. Why would you change something that caused no problems? I believe it was ravenatorman (#1 NA Archer in Season 14) who described the current Speed 2 Archer as a dodging simulator. And to be fair, he has a point. Now that there is no rushing possible and now that the best Archers have already developed their play style by a ton, which means that they barely get hit even with Speed 1, the matches of top players will probably last forever. And that does not make sense. Changing something that does not require change has already done serious harm to Badlion in the past; best example: the elo to MMR change. So why would you risk it again? Nobody, and literally nobody has ever complained about the Speed 1, so I have no clue why you would want to change it.

1.2 - UHC: Loving the infinite arrows change, best thing you could've done. The ladder right now is perfect.

1.3 - Iron: No changes, which is good, plays really smooth for some reason, seems like the lag got reduced a bit? I'm no expert tho.

2. The Rod Ladders

2.1 - Build UHC: I like how you tried to get the community involved to decide about the KB, however I don't like how it was executed. Instead of letting players vote ingame, I'd have much rather preferred a forum thread, to gather first opinions. To be it became quite evident that the vast majority of people either would like to have the S12 KB back (which is my favourite as well), or the UHC Meetup KB, which is great as well. By letting the forum community decide, you have the top tier players and also people who actually care about this server; by letting the server community decide, you have a lot of random people who don't even play that frequently and might also just vote the kit they're doing the best in, or just vote a random kit, because they don't even care. The current KB is bad, way too low and way too trading based. The amount of Test KB's available pretty much show that this it's way too experimental. Especially in Badlion's current situation of losing players you should much rather stick to what was successful, instead of what might work.

2.2 - SG: Haven't played it that much to judge, felt good though. Season 12 KB was pretty damn weird. I might edit this once I test it a bit more.

3. The Melee Ladders:

3.1 - NoDebuff Sorry, but what an earth is that KB? As if Badlion's KB was not already known enough for being really trading reliant, it's literally the worst nightmare of any good Pot PvPer. Skill doesn't even matter, it's basically just who gets the better crits and more lucky. If you wanna save yourself, change it. It's terrible. It probably got chosen because it was the only KB which bad players did well in. But you should listen to the opinions of actual good and famous players, who play PotPvP on a daily basis. In the end, they will form your player base. If they don't like it, they won't promote it. And therefore people won't play it.
Same with Debuff btw.

3.2 - Gapple Once again, why would you change something that doesn't require a change. I liked S12 because it was easy for me as a mediocre player. I didn't really have to concentrate on w-tapping or on my aim. But this is already over the top. I have trouble getting a single combo and I don't get comboed either. It's. literally. just. trading. Nothing more. Boring as fuck.

3.3 - Diamond Again, why did you change the KB? It's really bad, people getting random combos out of nowhere. No skill needed at all, it's pure luck. The KB is WAY too low and once your opponent is in a combo you can't escape, no matter what you do.

3.4 - IronSoup Even though it's a bad move in my eyes, I see why speed was removed. Because the famous Soup servers don't have speed and therefore you wanted to get more people playing soup. But with the current KB you kind of missed the point. It's not soup anymore, it's S14 Diamond with Soups and without a bow. It's not about the key skills like wtapping, blockhitting or getting combos in general, it's all about blockhit critting. Literally anyone could beat anyone, just because it's trading and does not require any skill. The soup based skills like quickdropping, refilling or even recrafting are absolutely not needed anymore, in fact anyone that knows how to move his mouse is able to soupdrop now, just because of the low pace. And it's a pity that the community didn't even have a chance to vote for speed or non-speed. I suggest you to go back to S14 soup, if you do keep it non speed, PLEASE lower the KB by a lot.

If everything stays like how it is right now, I won't play Season 15. And yeah you may not care, but don't be surprised if you ultimately lose your player base. Change things which are fine don't need a change. They just ruin it.

Posted on 13 August 2017 - 12:40 PM

I agree with you for the most part.

I personally like legacy archer, because I'm more of a close range rusher myself, and I also agree that speed 1 should be kept on the kit now because it's really easy to dodge now that it's ling range.

I also think that getting everyone to vote for their favorite kb is much better long term because it takes what the average player wants rather than the top teir players. Now, most ofthe top teir players will obviously support the kb that they exceled the most in, which doesn't promote diversity and change in the community. Meaning that the players at the top stay there, and the players at the bottom stay there. Not to mention that the top teir players aren't all who matters.

I personally like the gapply kb. I liked it in S12, S14, and I like it now. Having more vertical kb supports players to w-tap more, which requires skill, and therefore increases the skill cap.

Posted on 13 August 2017 - 12:52 PM

This is how I see S15.

Archer - Ravines are a good idea. Imo if they fall off the cliff they should die because this tping can be abused.

BuildUHC - Nice to see 48 arrows instead of 64. Kb 6 = best kb, but I still prefer old s14 kb.

Sg - Ok this kb is AIDS. Way too much vertical kb.

NoDebuff - Way too much vertical kb again, but the new maps are ok.

Posted on 13 August 2017 - 01:54 PM

The ranked KB isn't the KB we are going to use. The ones we are testing are the ones in unranked.

If you could try them all out and pick your favorite one and say how it could be even better, ect that would help!

Posted on 13 August 2017 - 01:56 PM

Can you please give us more options for sg kb?

Posted on 13 August 2017 - 02:02 PM

Non speed KB is the same for all kits, so whatever BuildUHC kb gets picked, will be picked for SG.

Posted on 13 August 2017 - 02:50 PM

I agree with your points here.

Personally for me, I like Legacy Archer (S14 Archer). The only problem with the season 15 archer kit is the change from speed 1 to speed 2. You can pretty much sit back and dodge for 15 whole minutes. I never saw a problem with speed 1 and I don't think anyone really complaining about it.

For build uhc you are 100% right. The KB is terrible. Everyone is basically a brick wall. Personally (like the rest of the community) I would like s12 KB.

Last edited on 13 August 2017 - 06:49 PM by SoulzHD

Good thread. I agree with mostly everything especially with the no debuff part.

Also I may be wrong but kb8 for build feels exactly like s12-14 kb (my favourite)

Posted on 13 August 2017 - 06:59 PM

Thanks for your input guys, I'll test out the KB's tomorrow if I get to do it so I can say more about them.

Posted on 13 August 2017 - 07:09 PM

I completely agree with what you said about NoDebuff, regardless of which kit it is for me I still consistently trade with almost everyone I fight unless it's an opponent who doesn't know how to aim well and can barely get a hit in the first place. KB for pot is meant to make it so good players are REWARDED for being good, hence making it extremely effective for wtapping/blockitting as it's literally one of if not the most important aspects of potpvp for winning the majority of fights. I literally fought someone earlier who was previously Gold 3 on S14, we kept trading in every fight we did and we took turns in winning in ranked. I took the same guy on to potpvp and dueled him on there, where wtapping is effective, and I 19 potted him without even going agro or concentrating on pot conservation. This clearly shouldn't be happening and something needs to be changed to revive the pot community for Badlion.

One of the ways you could potentially fix this issue and prevent it from happening again in the future if forming a dedicated team who work on getting better values for knockback, preferably known, respectable and experienced players as it'd probably so much easier.

Posted on 14 August 2017 - 02:20 AM

Apparently two of the kb's got eliminated. None of these kb's are like season 14s at least for build. And one of the things people didn't complain about in season 14 Build UHC was the kb. And that is why a huge amount of players chose to play badlion instead of ultra. Can we have a opportunity to vote for that kb again?

Posted on 14 August 2017 - 03:14 AM

+1 for the speed 1 personally though don't like the ravines think it's pointless as it just drags on fights for longer then they need to.

Posted on 14 August 2017 - 04:17 AM

Yep agree on almost all.

Archer with speed 2 is absolutely terrible and as raven said a dodging simulator

SG is actually not that bad just need to get used to it.

Build UHC prefered the old kb I don't remember the current unranked kbs right now will test them out again as soon as possible. I am not sure if you guys can have 2 different kb values for non speed but assuming from the existence of multiple build uhc kits you can

I don't even know if the NoDebuff kit kb can even be fixed at this point, it is not very good but better than last season imo

Something that wasn't on the list, diamond kb is very very bad there is far too much vertical kb for the kit to be played properly and you can get ridiculous combos out of nowhere.

Iron Soup If you guyss are going to keep it non-speed the kb is very fitting however the kit should have speed

Extra: I dont know if this is just me but I feel like a lot of my arrows go through people especially in UHC this never happened in season 14. The kit itself is perfect tho
I am quite sure every non speed and speed kb is the same but different kits should have different kbs depending on how they are played

Posted on 14 August 2017 - 08:45 AM

For some reason people are moving from pointless rage threads to actual well redacted threads were they state what they don´t like in a mature way, idk when did this happened but im proud lol.

Regarding the issue, I cant add much on the bow ladders since I never got past gold IV its not like Iam a bow expert, but I personally like the ravine since I feel rushers belong to the UHC and Iron kits, Archer should be a long range only thing. Perhaps change the maps a bit, make it two mountains, two cliffs, two buildings, or something like that give them a bit more character as they are pretty lame.

In build uhc I personally liked having 64 arrows as I learned to counter bowspam, the problem that biuld has can´t really be fixed and its people abusing something in particular (lava, water, arrows, not engagint trades just getting cheeky hits and running) And I personaly don´t see whats soo terrible about the current KB I don´t ave a problem with it, of course I need to get used to it since im dropping a lot.

Posted on 14 August 2017 - 08:50 AM

Okay so I added Diamond and IronSoup after playing a bit and I've come to the conclusion that these too ladders may even be the biggest issue in terms of ladders in S15.

@ginie1: Tested the KB's in both Build and Pot, I voted for the last (3rd) KB in both ladders, simply because they had the most KB. The Build KB's are all still too low for my likings and don't resemble S12 PvP unless I'm stupid, the 3rd Pot KB is really good and seems extremly similar to the S14 KB which I liked. The KB's are overall too low and too high in Soup.

Posted on 14 August 2017 - 09:00 AM

I think this is too much it should just showing the hearts like (Killed 6.5)
http://prntscr.com/g8b78v

Last edited on 14 August 2017 - 09:20 AM by Gulleboy

Diamond kb in s14 was perfect bring it back ;-;

I was em3 diamond so ik what I'm saying

Last edited on 14 August 2017 - 09:33 AM by BustyBista

can you fix ctw and ctf kb please i love you

Posted on 14 August 2017 - 09:58 AM

I agree with you on the build uhc kb. Everyone is a brick wall, lava is really overpowered because of the knockback as well. If they change the kb, they will change how the games will turn out.

Posted on 14 August 2017 - 10:07 AM

I agree with all you've said, I'd just like to add about the current elo system and how it's not exactly very fun:

- Players want high numbers
- The claim of 'Low risk, low reward' isn't at all the case, You lose less elo yes, though you also gain less elo so it really doesn't matter, it's basically 'same risk, low reward' which everything really grindy
- Players wanted s12 elo back so why try something again that might work?