Last edited on 16 February 2017 - 09:16 AM by 00000000000E

Hello everyone,


This is going to be quite a long post, although I think it is an interesting read. Here goes.

Personally I think that badlion is going to have a real struggle becoming an esport in which everyone is legitimate, and here's why:

To be good at pvp, or any skill, sport, or video game you need practise - therefore many people will practise to try and become the best.

Now from a Minecraft point of view, there's an issue. Because becoming the best (legitimately) involves clicking at a constant rate for a long period of time (note I am not saying cps is the only way to get good at the game, just that you need to be clicking to win) Of course for certain gamemodes, there is less clicking, and more time spend using a rod, lava bucket, etc (Build UHC etc.), although certainly for potion pvp, the majority of the time spent fighting is clicking as fast as possible. Now if you're trying to become the best, you've got to put in a lot of time! So if you're practising for 5 hours a day of game time, with 80% if the fight being clicking, at 9cps, then:

Some quick math:

(9*60*60*5)*0.8 = 129'600 clicks PER DAY

Now for other gamemodes, you may spend 30% of the game time clicking (because you use rod etc for other part of game), which is better, although that is still almost 50,000 clicks per day.

Why is this an issue?


Repetitive strain injury (RSI). Sounds stupid, but it has happened to me, and I'm sure many other people have had issues (maybe not as serious) too - when I used to played badlion for many hours a day at the weekends, I ended up ruining my fingers and wrist (in genuine pain) from all the clicking. I even had to go to the doctors, and use ice packs on my wrist because there was a burning sensation (inflamed) (I also believe Archybot got arthritis from clicking too much). Now not everyone will have had this kind of serious issue , although I'm sure EVERYONE has had issues with their fingers hurting from clicking too much.

So you may be seeing where this is heading. Once you try to become the best, you come into the obstacle that you either have to have constant breaks because you have RSI (as in skipping days when you practise as a professional (which breaks for an esport player means you fall behind competition which won't happen)) and your fingers feel in pain, or you continue on ruining your fingers, and your finger gradually can click at lower CPS because it is absolutely knackered.

Unfortunately, most people won't have a break - because this means they'll fall behind competition if they want to become the best! if you want to be the best at something, you take the path of least resistance and do what many people have done. Instead of quitting, you simply get an auto-clicker. So you don't ruin your hand while trying to get good at a game. Either way, if you've already developed arthiritis or another permanent issue, you've still done damage

Now because autoclickers are pretty easy to hide, it isn't hard to get away with doing this, and therefore many people, if they want to continue playing for long hours a day will simply use this as an alternative to having breaks. edit: It seems that badlion will be able to ban autoclickers, which is great and ensures a fair environment for players. Although it doesn't satisfy the issue that damage is possibly being done to competitors through clicking constantly for hours.


Conclusion:

Hence, here's what I feel would be the only solution for badlion, and general Minecraft as an E-sport:


1) The main competitive gamemodes which do not require players to click as fast as possible to win, so from a professional player perspective it is more sustainable as they won't damage their health.

2) Have gamemodes which do not require players to click for long durations (same reason as 1)

3) Allow autoclickers, to ensure a fair competitive environment. Otherwise any legitimate players will have an extremely difficult time winning, because the best opponents will very likely be fighting them with autoclickers (maybe this is too far fetched, and would reduce the skill involved, check edit below for alternative)

4) as in csgo, make the enjoyment of the esport viewing in the strategic side not only the skill side. This isn't to do with the clicking issues, but is crucial for viewership retention otherwise the esport will get boring very quickly without variety (strategy)


Feel free to give your opinion in the comments, I'd be interested to hear what people have to say. Although it isn't a very nice reality allowing autoclickers, something has to change (either the gamemodes) or making autoclickers legitimate in my opinion. Maybe I'm wrong though, this is simply my interpretation, but feel free to give your opinion.


tl;dr: An issue with Minecraft PVP being competitive, is that people will gradually get health issues from doing too much clicking. meaning they either continue, or use a pretty undetectable autoclicker to solve their issue and continue. Meaning some people get advantages that others don't - meaning legit players will unlikely ever get to the top. Also viewers will get bored if the esport has no strategy and is just fighting. Csgo is interesting because of the variety that the strategy provides, and therefore the viewership retention/maintenance. Badlion will need strategy combined with skill to maintain a viewer base imo.

Edit: Maybe saying we need autoclickers to not destroy people's health was a bit far fetched… sorry. Although I do feel that strategy needs to be a core part of the e-sport, because otherwise for viewers it will get tedious very quickly. Also I feel that reducing the clicking that needs to be done would be a good idea, Archybot has had health issues from clicking too much, I've had issues, and I'm sure others are developing their own issues. Fortunately it seems like not many people have had issues from clicking constantly, although I do feel that there may be long term health effects that are being overlooked… which could be drastically reduced by changing how the gamemodes are structured instead of 90% fast as possible clicking. As someone mentioned having a multiplier so that you are still clicking, but not at 15cps might be possible.

Please note I'm not saying that I have a solution. I'm simply offering my view on how the E-sport needs to develop to be more sustainable for professionals. At least consider my point.

Thanks for reading!


Thekiwicolonel/Oli

Last edited on 15 February 2017 - 12:22 PM by CraftainJulius

seems nice, actually. a better idea, though, would be to cap the detectable click speed at something that's easily achieved from not jittering, so players won't get tired, and autoclickers won't do any good anyway. (example: Click Speed Cap is at 6cps, so anything above is still only detected as 6cps.)

Minecraft's always been a clicky clicky game. Might as well leave some of it :P

Last edited on 15 February 2017 - 12:23 PM by 00000000000E

I agree, clicking cannot be entirely removed - but having caps on the CPS is certainly an option to help prevent this cheating.

Posted on 15 February 2017 - 01:19 PM

Automatically Deleted

Posted on 15 February 2017 - 01:45 PM

The skill cap for the game is already hella low…

Posted on 15 February 2017 - 01:47 PM

Thankfully I haven't experienced serious pain from jitterclicking yet but im really afraid I will, so I agree with you.

Posted on 15 February 2017 - 02:02 PM

Not trying to come across as a dick or anything but I completely disagree. Autoclicking is a major advantage at this point in time more so in pot based ladders. Take this for example, one of the few main things that can create a fairly large skill gap within pot is wtapping, blockhitting and being agro. If you were to allow everyone in existence to autoclick, you're essentially removing the majority of the skillgap due to people being able to focus on timings a lot more and that would essentially make it so people can easily become as good as the typical top tier players who're legit without much practice. This is without mentioning that autoclicking to an extent can seriously improve your aim over time and of course as you'd expect it would end up reducing the skill gap even more. The thing is I think you're over exaggerating on how important "click speed" is in certain ladders, it can vary sometimes but in most cases, click speeds over 8cps or isn't giving you much of an edge unless you reach around 16 which would end up breaking your sprint without you having to wtap or blockhit etc.

People can definitely be good without having to have high cps and it's not as big of a deal as it's made out to be especially due to the cap of people only being able to hit entities twice a second. As people like BetterSprint used to say back in the day: Aim > CPS.
The main thing to concentrate on is being consistent, especially within pot ladders. So yeah, just at least keep this in mind.

Posted on 15 February 2017 - 02:04 PM

yeah, I would be careful if I were you - vary and play CSGO or something - split up the time from just clicking

Posted on 15 February 2017 - 02:05 PM

Yeah, that's a good point, although I'm sure gamemodes could be created in which there's strategy as well. CSGO would be kind of boring if it was just 1v1s all the time, right? It can be improved.

Posted on 15 February 2017 - 02:05 PM

Yeah, I'm not sure how it would work exactly, but something like that.

Last edited on 16 February 2017 - 06:42 AM by 00000000000E

I understand where you're coming from, although you have to realise that even though the skillgap in "timings" may be reduced with autoclicking, there is currently a large gap between those people who do autoclick and those who don't! There's already a huge disadvantage to many lower level players. It is obvious that many people at high ranks autoclick, very obvious, and even in gold I've seen people doing it quite blatantly. Therefore even though it may reduce the skill gap in the timing aspect, there's still the massive disadvantage legit players currently have which this would remove edit: it appears badlion premium is removing autoclicking all together, so there won't be such a large skill gap anymore - therefore allowing autoclicking likely isn't the best solution if this is the case

Posted on 15 February 2017 - 02:13 PM

Yeah I do that already.

Last edited on 15 February 2017 - 02:25 PM by Suitability

CPS Limit isn't such a bad idea, 8-10 CPS seems like a reasonable limit.

Most game modes on Badlion Premium don't require you to have high CPS but rather other skills such as aim, movement, communication skills, and game sense.

Also, I have to strongly disagree with you, I don't think CPS is a game changing factor Aim > CPS.

Edit: I disagree with adding an auto clicker to solve this issue. I used to auto click once and believe me when I tell you this it makes other skills such as w-tapping, agro-pearling and s-tapping way too easy.

Posted on 15 February 2017 - 02:16 PM

practise

Last edited on 16 February 2017 - 06:43 AM by 00000000000E

I agree, aim is far more important than CPS. My point wasn't that CPS was more important - I was trying to create a realistic scenario, about how players join competitive pvp, and then gradually end up autoclicking once they realise their either quit or continue (due to finger/wrist pains).

As mentioned by someone previously, and yourself, there could be a CPS limit which may help. Although it won't fix the issue that people get issues from doing lots of clicking (as shown in post 8cps for many hours is a lot of clicks!)

Therefore a solution needs to be found, in which there isn't a health barrier from staying legitimate. Either by creating new gamemodes as the core e-sport, or by allowing autoclicking at a certain cps and then basing the rest of the esport off aim/strategy.

Posted on 15 February 2017 - 02:34 PM

Practising won't change the fact you're going to ruin your hands/wrists from clicking too much, and you'll either quit the game or if you still enjoy it and get the dopamine rush from winning, you'll instead continue but cheat - practise doesn't have anything to do with it, you're ruining your hands whether you like it or not!

Last edited on 15 February 2017 - 02:43 PM by Suitability

I agree that Badlion needs to find a way to to fix this problem especially if it wants to attract people from other games because if you have to click fast to be better that is a major turn off to new players but I don't think auto clicking is a valid solution. I hope that the owners and admins take this thread into consideration.

Last edited on 15 February 2017 - 02:51 PM by 00000000000E

Yeah, maybe autoclicking isn't the solution, as that would ruin part of the fun. Although there needs to be some sort of change to ensure level playing. The only issue is I can't see an alternative to autoclicking, as people will still get the issue from clicking at 7cps for 5 hrs a day, and meaning they will end up autoclicking anyway. We'll see.

Posted on 15 February 2017 - 03:07 PM

https://www.badlion.net/profile/user/legendcaleb 6 CPS
https://www.badlion.net/profile/user/QDMEMBERKIKZO 7-8 CPS
https://www.badlion.net/profile/user/Saevar2000 7 CPS
https://www.badlion.net/profile/user/AbyKhan 6 CPS (and 120+ ms)
https://www.badlion.net/profile/user/GoodEnchant 7-8 CPS

I know where you're coming from, and high CPS does help, but it's not EXTREMELY necessary to have high CPS when you have good aim

Posted on 15 February 2017 - 03:11 PM

I think you're missing the point, the post is trying to explain that people end up getting into autoclicking not because of the advantage, but because they damage their health. And if you want to make it an e-sport, people will have to be playing SERIOUSLY hard, with a lot of clicking, which means bad health, and they end up autoclicking. My point isn't that people will autoclick just to beat others and become the best